Why do all these C64 arcade ports suck?

[Zaxxon]

I was checking out a bunch of arcade classics for the C64 on the x64 emu (VICE?) to see how they compared to the CV versions. They didn't suck but almost every C64 version was far inferior to the CV version. I thought at first maybe it was just a case of lazy programming. That would explain one or two but almost every one I tried looked and sounded worse. What's the deal?! I always thought and was led to believe the C64 was more powerful than the CV. It has 2x the memory. Is the emulator fucked up and not displaying it properly or are they really like this? Is the music all "chirpy" like that on every game?

These are the ones I was comparing to the CV versions:
Burgertime
Burnin rubber aka Bump n jump
q-bert
smurfen
Tarzan
Mr. Do!
Galaxian
Defender
Jungle Hunt
Centipede

[Kid Ice]

I don't think you want to make a comparison such as this via emulation. I can't distinctly recall all these games, although I know the C64 had excellent versions of Mr. Do and Defender. Generally though, C64 games and CV games are probably close enough to be arguable.

[IntvGene]

I think that alot of these were done by companies afterwards with their 'B' programming team. I mean, most of these releases were had been done, so it was just milking the marke that was already milked. So, they didn't put their best efforts into making them perfect.

Tarzan is bloody awful.. I don't even think it's supposed to be the same game.. but look who made it - Martech?? Who?
I don't think that C64 Tapper is all that bad. But, Bump N Jump is still best on the Intellivision.

Take a look at some of the other C64's arcade ports.

Donkey Kong
Paperboy
Rampage
Toobin
Rampart
R-Type
etc.

In competent hands, the C64 can do some amazing things.

[Mayhem]

Tarzan wasn't anything to do with an arcade to my knowledge. Martech (a UK company) got the rights to the name in 87 and built an arcade adventure type game around it.

I like C64 Q-bert btw :P

If you're looking for excellent C64 ports then check out the following:

Gyruss
Wizard of Wor (Commodore Western version, not the MAX one)
Afterburner (US version)
Bubble Bobble (UK version)
Bionic Commando (UK version)
Commando (UK version)
Ghouls 'n Ghosts (UK version)
Buggy Boy (UK version)
Ninja Spirit (UK version)
Rainbow Islands (UK version)

Strange this... the UK version is almost always the better one

[Mr-Monday]

You HAVE to play Wizball, The Great Giana sisters and International Karate. Oh and also The Last Ninja and Uridium.

The C64 was really popular in Europe.

[Mayhem]

True on all 5 of them, though the thread is about arcade ports for the C64

[KJN]

...and Green beret (Rush'n attack)
Mr Do's castle
Ikari warriors (UK version, stay far far away from the US version)
Cabal (UK version)
Hyper sports
Power drift
Turbo outrun
Salamander
Combat shcool
Arkanoid
Arkanoid - revenge of Doh
Rod land
...

[Keir]

Bubble Bobble (UK version)

I thought the US version was an excellent port. What's better about the UK version?

[Mayhem]

If you give me a link to the US version, then I'll go check it out. For all I know, the version released in the US could be the same. Just wanted to distinct that the version I got to play back in 87 is probably the BEST arcade conversion the machine has

[Jorpho]

Didn't the ColecoVision have a higher resolution?

Mr. Do's Castle is far superior on the C64 compared to the ColecoVision version.
________
Buy no2 vaporizer

[Keir]

I just have the original disk. They're probably the same. Bubble Bobble on the 64 rules.

[Mayhem]

Most of the games I listed had both UK and US versions, and the UK version was nearly always better. I've got the feeling that the US got the UK program with regards to Bubble Bobble however...

[tom]

You're right about the lazy programming. The trouble with C-64 and UK is that most games were written for tape, as USA C-64 games were written for Disc. During the 80's the tape still ruled in UK, and it was easier for companies like Ocean to write the game with the Spectrum (most awful tape-only UK computer) in mind.
Even Commodore UK promoted the C-64 with a cassette device. Sad but true.

I always travelled to London in the C-64 haydays to get the latest and best disc games from USA companies like SSI, Micropose, EA, Origin, Broderbund, Mindscape and many more.

This doesn't mean UK didn't make good games, sometimes they got it right (Thamalus, System 7) and we had ZZAP!, which was the best C-64 mag.

[Flack]

Many of those arcade ports you mentioned for the C64 were done very early in the machine's life. Many of the later games/ports were much better. For example, there is a game called Donkey Kong '86 that is much better than the original Donkey Kong port. Instead of being squashed and fat, the graphics are much closer to the arcade version.

Another known problem with most C64 emulators is that the palattes are off a bit -- not too bad, but enough for us veterans to notice. Of course, it's easier to notice when you still have a real C64 on your desktop ...

Flack

[Ed Oscuro]

All those Ghosts'n Goblins, Ghouls'n Ghosts and Shinobi/Shadow Dancer/Contra (Gryzor there though,) Green Beret, R-Type and everything else ports make me dizzy with their awfulness. Though there's some good to be found in these (Ghouls 'n Ghosts on the Spectrum in particular has some kickass stuff in there, even if "stuff" means pretty much the waving title screen, and the C64 version has some nice music) they're mostly just...awful.

I do hear that the Spectrum port of The Last Ninja was alright, it certainly looks good for the Spectrum :D

On the Spectrum...argh, even GOOD ports like the Spectrum Ghouls 'n Ghosts are obviously in dire need of CPU cycles. One problem in particular which seems to plague a couple sidescroller ports on Spectrum and the C64 was the "up key to do something special AND jump." In C64 Castlevania, you have to press jump and fire (a couple times, I hear) to get your secondary weapon to fire, but it makes you jump as well. You could probably chalk that one up to bad programming, though; Morgoth Galaxius (poster at the CV Dungeon Forums) describes it as the buggiest game he's ever seen...your character sometimes gets up after getting killed and walks around like normal! Blame that and all the other problems of that port on dodgy programming.

On Spectrum Ghouls'n Ghosts, however-- the finest sidescroller I've run into on the system, and likely the best arcade-to-mini conversion out there, universally acclaimed as a masterpiece of Spectrum programming -- the problem's symptoms are similar but the cause is undoubtedly different. You HAVE to jump and fire to get your shot to travel upwards. While you can map jump to any key, the computer apparently can't spare cycles to check if more than five keys (left, right, jump, crouch, fire; in that order) have been pressed, which I think is due to memory constraints. At least we had smooth scrolling on that one. Yay! Now let's play Shadow Dancer. Boo.

[Mayhem]

Well you're wrong about C64 Castlevania... seeing as I own an original of it

Fire = whip
Up = jump
Hold fire for a second = secondary weapon

It actually plays quite well in comparison to the NES version, I was quite surprised when running it for the first time.

As for arcade conversions, there are some great ones and some absolute stinkers. I can't see why you're puting Green Beret/Rush 'n Attack down at all, it's one of the best out there. In fact, I'd say it was BETTER than the arcade itself, and a lot harder! Ditto Spy Hunter, far more playable in its converted form that in the arcade.

Stinker wise I'd choose Breakthru, Space Harrier (great attempt at the graphics though), Paperboy (don't like it at all), Gunsmoke (the UK version that was never released), Galaxians (you can't do vertical games like that on a horizontal screen) and Sierra's Frogger (yuck).

[Ed Oscuro]

Ah, guess Green Beret goes a bit far back for me. They did change the jump-kicking soldier's attacks around a bit...no, guess I'm not doing justice on that.

As for buggy C64 CV...I think I might've been talking about the Amiga version, actually..! That would explain things.

[KJN]

You're right about the lazy programming. The trouble with C-64 and UK is that most games were written for tape, as USA C-64 games were written for Disc.

Dont think the focus on tapes lead to lazy programming. On the contrary there was more optimation to get as much possible into each load.

Most of those old arcade conversions wasn't done with disks or tape in mind, they where made for cartridges. However a full 64kb cart in 1983 would have been very expensive so many of them was just 16 or 32 kb.

Another known problem with most C64 emulators is that the palattes are off a bit

Oh yes, if you have an older emulator visit THIS SITE and get what's probably the most accurate palette.

[Zaxxon]

I can't compare Ikari Warriors, Rush n' Attack etc.. since there's no CV version. I was just checking out the games(Tarzan,smurfs) and arcade ports that were also on the CV to see which looked/sounded better. Last night I checked out Spy Hunter, Mr. Do's Castle, Frogger, Frogger 2, Moon Patrol, Tapper, Time Pilot, Zaxxon. The CV versions were all better. Spy Hunter had much worse music and less detailed graphics. Mr Do's Castle looked squished, low res, boxed and the music wasn't as good. Frogger-bad. Tapper's character sprites don't look anything like the arcade version's and the saloon is much less detailed. It's not what I expected. I thought with 64k and the extra storage of a tape/disk vs. a 32k max cart would allow better versions.

[Mayhem]

Well if you weigh up my personal top ten C64 games, 9 of them originate from the UK and only one from the US. Bias? Not really... the UK programmers were probably the leading games people in the mid to late 80s, even more so than the US. What you COULD rely on the US for during that period were good RPGs and strategy games.

Out of those 10, only one of them (and not the US game!) is a multiload, the rest are single loads. Tapes, as KJN said, made programmers here concentrate on getting everything right without having to rely on being able to always load new stuff in. Think of it in a sense comparing 2600 programmers early on having to work with 2-4k, to how carts got for the machine during the 80s of up to 32k possibly.

All early carts for the C64 were only 16k btw. I believe the first cart to break that limit was the Comol 80 release Commodore made in 1985. And they released a 64k multicart in 1987. By 1990 the limit was taken up to 512k with the release of "Myth" and "Last Ninja Remix" (both well worth checking out!). All those conversions you mentioned Zaxxon were limited to 16k running off the cartridge. Tapper does have a "full" release on tape/disc where it has all 4 bars, but no difference in graphics. I actually really like this conversion, along with Spy Hunter (playability man, it's how it really plays heh) and Moon Patrol.

Oh, for the record, my personal top 10 C64 games are:

IK+ (Chop 'n Drop Karate in the US)
Wizball
Bubble Bobble
Mercenary
Paradroid
Impossible Mission
Laser Squad
Mayhem in Monsterland
The Sentinel (The Sentry in the US)
Dropzone