Pondering Zelda: Wind Waker (caution: spoilers)

[ManekiNeko]

After playing the game diligently for nearly twenty hours, I've finally beaten The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker. However, the climactic battle with Ganondorf, and the somewhat lackluster ending that followed, left me with a lot of questions.

It's revealed in the game that there have been several Links throughout the history of the series, although the game never specifies how many, or which Link the "Hero of Time" was. I thought that it may have been the Link from Zelda III: A Link to the Past, but a friend of mine assures me that it was actually the N64 Link, made famous by Ocarina of Time and its spin-off Majora's Mask. Does anyone know for sure which Link the Hero of Time really is? For that matter, where do all the Zelda games fit chronologically? Which events took place first, and which happened last?

I'm also wondering just what inspired the unique look of the game. I'm tempted to say that the artists borrowed ideas from American animators like Craig McCracken (The Powerpuff Girls) and Genndy Tartakovski (Samurai Jack), but the swirling, pointed patterns textured onto the characters seem to have their origins in Mayan and Incan culture. They're also somewhat reminescent of the tribal tattoos that have become increasingly popular lately. Have the designers ever revealed what inspired the game's artwork in any interviews? I'm curious to know why they took the game in such an unusual artistic direction.

Finally... what's up with Ganondorf? At the end of the game, he flies through the air and effortlessly deflects your sword attacks, almost as if he's been watching too much Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. I'm surprised the designers didn't add some trees to the background, so he can stand on the tips of their most fragile branches.

JR

[ArnoldRimmer83]

It's revealed in the game that there have been several Links throughout the history of the series, although the game never specifies how many, or which Link the "Hero of Time" was. I thought that it may have been the Link from Zelda III: A Link to the Past, but a friend of mine assures me that it was actually the N64 Link, made famous by Ocarina of Time and its spin-off Majora's Mask. Does anyone know for sure which Link the Hero of Time really is? For that matter, where do all the Zelda games fit chronologically? Which events took place first, and which happened last?

JR

I honestly think even Nintendo themselves don't know what specific order the Zelda games go in. The games don't fit together very well at all. I never bother to give it much thought. Zelda 1 and 2 seemed to be the only Zelda games with any clear continuity.

[Hovoc]

http://zeldalegends.com/story/continuity/


Q: Where does The Wind Waker fit into the overall Zelda series timeline?

Aonuma: You can think of this game as taking place over a hundred years after Ocarina of Time. You can tell this from the opening story, and there are references to things from Ocarina located throughout the game as well.
Miyamoto: Well, wait, which point does the hundred years start from?
Aonuma: From the end.
Miyamoto: No, I mean, as a child or as a...
Aonuma: Oh, right, let me elaborate on that. Ocarina of Time basically has two endings of sorts; one has Link as a child and the other has him as an adult. This game, The Wind Waker, takes place a hundred years after the adult Link defeats Ganon at the end of Ocarina.
Miyamoto: This is pretty confusing for us, too. (laughs) So be careful.

[dmhawkmoon]

The hero of time is definitely the N64 one. I think it even calls him that in that game. Zelda III didn't have any time travelling...

[Lemmy Kilmister]

Yeah LTTP only had you swithching between the light world to the dark one. Their was no time traveling in that game at all. As for the stories in the zelda series and how they supposly link to one other. I think that the zelda franchise was made before game creators really had any complexs story idea's in mind. So shigeru miyamoto just thought up stuff while he want along and has recently try to fit it all toughter to fill the void.

[Ed Oscuro]

This is when I hate fans with a passion.

Perhaps ten Star Trek movies and nearly two trillogies of Star Wars movies in (and more relevantly, countless MegaMan iterations later) we forget that it's possible to tell a story with the same cast but no solid ties to any actual history of their own that they should be expected to learn from. Like the comic books of old, our dear hero Link must not take any powerups with him to next encounters; the common sense nature of the games would be lost if weapons and defenses were allowed to spiral out of control in a contrived arms race. This has been the bane of science fiction (and never ending stories in general) at least since "Doc" Smith allowed his Lensmen stories to essentially degrade into a farce as the weapons and the defenses of hist stories kept getting stronger, more powerful, and of course larger and that much more unbelievable.

The parallels to games such as those in the Zelda series which are essentially martial operations predicated on a preconcieved balance should be obvious. To the hero of Wind Waker the story is fresh and new; we only hear about the Hero of Time and have our suspicions that hero would be the N64's due to the stained glass windows, but I would argue this can merely be seen as a thoughtful nod towards Nintendo's past efforts in 3D that turned the Nintendo 64's limitations into a veritable stylistic asset.

I shouldn't be rude, but I must say that anybody who believes games that work in a series must therefore have a consistent storyline just don't get it. If there is a relation between Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask (now that is an interesting point I will dwell on in a bit) and WW, what of the original Hyrule Fantasy and, say, Capcom's work on Oracle of Ages/Oracle of Seasons (and the other game in the GBC series)? Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons definitely work together as a whole via the password system; in a way this allows them to form a coherent mesh. Link's Awakening is a side story...but of which title? Majora's Mask seems to be a sort of semi-sequel or extension to the story of Ocarina of Time as it seems to take place after other events, but is the graphic style the only real concrete evidence that it actually is a sequel to Ocarina of Time?

My theory is that with the series the developers realize that there are some elements to the games which have worked consistently across many platforms and throughout time. The Metroid series never truly fails to get the nostalgia truck moving, but I feel it has failed to tie together games in a meaningful fashion. Yet now Metroid is facing the same dilemma that other games (and indeed movies) based on a sequel/prequel formula are up against - what happens after the final evil has been vanquished?

One meets old enemies time after time and eventually their reappearance is illogical and worn out; they cease to exist in causing fear or wonder. In this fashion the folks at Nintendo have made a ghost out of the space dragon Ridley; the 'Ridleymon' style of his presentation in Metroid Fusion or the even more ridiculous Mecha Ridley in Zero...on top of obtuse and not terribly well planned storyline advances and cutscenes...have diminished what that series was about.

The series still appeals to platform and 2D action fans; its mechanics are solid, but one can't help but feel that the lessons of Super Metroid's dynamic, 'realtime storytelling' and introduction of new elements has been supplanted by laziness and creativity by fanservice, which ultimately cause no end of trouble for the series director and does no justice by loyal fans. If you want a game able to tell story in an unobtrusive manner, look at System Shock 2 (I do admit and heartily endorse Retro Studio's take on the problem via the scanner system and it seems to work quite well, though once again not quite as perfectly as in the original). The 2D platforming elements are still as solid as ever, but the game should not have its effective elements ignored and dismantled piecemeal from the whole.

Zelda's formula specifically and brilliantly sidesteps unnecessary quagmires of adding too much 'history' by adding actual content in place of a chonological progression of events. I have always admired how the game presents in various characters archetypes, if you will, that are mirrors into the human condition. One does not look at the game's townspeople and say "these folks are nothing new; they're old." Instead one's left with the feeling you've met an old friend. Nintendo even makes use of this formula within Wind Waker itself; a host of characters turn out to be guardians of the past and heirs of ancient powers.

Perhaps this all treads a bit too close to those old tales of the young boy or girl who turns out to have royal of fairy blood that Frank Baum felt were a negative outlook for the young, but Nintendo balances this quite nicely with the whole game requiring you to take that role and its responsibilities.

As an aside, this original question only seems to arise when discussing Zelda and Castlevania, both of which had a long span of time where one is playing through the same story but different games (Final Fantasy doesn't count because there never has been any question as to when they have or haven't created a sequel). Until Dracula X came along Konami had done just fine producing a number of great remakes; at the time the gameplay was just right for the market, and they figured that trying to create some grander scheme would just break things that were already fixed.*

*Please note that while Castlevania III is a masterpiece and CV II is fondly remembered, these games were designed to appeal to a wider audience than the original CV and add a more cinematic experience; fans of the original game's excellent gameplay in those dark, primitive days when gameplay was king were treated via remakes such as Akumajo Dracula on the x68K [+1!] and Super Castlevania IV, which sought to bring Dracula and Shimon back to life to fight on a new generation of machines. Unfortunately, it seems Castlevania is now broken as an end result of complexity allowed to run out of control yet it is seen as a necessity instead of a detractor from the game's flow.

[hezeuschrist]

I shouldn't be rude, but I must say that anybody who believes games that work in a series must therefore have a consistent storyline just don't get it.

You've obviously given this more thought than the entire collective minds of the board.

I don't get it.

[Hovoc]

I shouldn't be rude, but I must say that anybody who believes games that work in a series must therefore have a consistent storyline just don't get it.

You've obviously given this more thought than the entire collective minds of the board.

I don't get it.

I fail to see why people dont understand the question and answer.

Think of the game based alot on family traditions. Where a persons name is important and an honor to be named afte rsomeone else in your family.

The games are a series of storys about a series of people. Almost each game refers to a different set of people, with the exception of Gannon who i think is referred somewhere as being immortal and the 64 versions. The rest are based at different times with the decendents of the main characters.


I feel the above statement best accurately answers the question. I am happy with that answer.

Now the fun part is trying to figure out WHERE in the kindom of hyrule each game took place

[Twinbee]

I'm also wondering just what inspired the unique look of the game. I'm tempted to say that the artists borrowed ideas from American animators like Craig McCracken (The Powerpuff Girls) and Genndy Tartakovski (Samurai Jack), but the swirling, pointed patterns textured onto the characters seem to have their origins in Mayan and Incan culture. They're also somewhat reminescent of the tribal tattoos that have become increasingly popular lately. Have the designers ever revealed what inspired the game's artwork in any interviews? I'm curious to know why they took the game in such an unusual artistic direction.

I've always find similar the style of WW desings to one old anime movie called "Wanpaku oji no orochi taiji" (aka "The little prince and the dragon with 8 heads")
It's an old movie from the '60s and it's based in old japanese imperial literature.
I always thought the designs of Wind Waker was inspired by this...

[ubersaurus]

The GB link games could be connected to ANY of the other zelda games. The story has Ocarina and Majora's mask first, then wind waker, then LTTP, then the NES zelda games.

Ridley isn't a single creature in Metroid-ridley is a race of creatures. That's why he keeps coming back.

[Ed Oscuro]

The games are a series of storys about a series of people ... based at different times with the decendents of the main characters.

Wind Waker certainly gives credence to this theory, but Nintendo has stated that each Zelda title features a unique hero. While the Oracle games (and possibly Majora's Mask and Link's Awakening, ignoring the CD-i titles) have the same hero, the settings for many Zelda titles are similar enough to what's come before that one can perhaps even think of each game as taking place in its own universe, with parallels in technology and supporting cast, but they are still different.

The difference between Zelda and Castlevania games with Simon (outside of CV2) is evident in that with Simon's games you are playing the same game, with the same story, and similar level progression. With Zelda, you may be playing the same story but there are important differences. Looking at two standouts in the series - Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time - it's possible to imagine that these games take place in one contiguous timeline, but does that make sense?

My answer is that it doesn't, and not just because it adds too much complexity to the series. The essential reason is that Zelda's lands, customs, and cast often hint at a prior history or referencing earlier games but this is intentionally vague. For me, the fun is in drawing parallels and seeing how characters act as they had in games released previously. It incorporates a sense of deja vu into the series and I think that's a better effect than trying to make up some artificial reasoning behind how game continents can shift around as much as Zelda has seen them or that there are various bloodlines in Zelda imbued with certain traits, rather than seeing all of the characters as a sampling of ordinary people with extraordinary traits that make them extraordinary and yet mundane.

This last point is important because I think it would cheapen the various messages of Zelda if recurring themes in characters were pinpointed to descendants. Two games come to mind that work to disprove this possibility - the previously mentioned spiritual descendants and inheritors of powers and responsibilities in Wind Waker have either changed form (the Koroks) or are from an apparently entire different race.

All that aside, while it's been said that the Zelda heroes are unique, and their environments most obviously are, here's something I've been holding out on posting -

The music in The Wind Waker is great. Has the same person worked on all of the Zelda games? Also, how much emphasis was placed on sound design?

Mr. Aonuma: Throughout the Zelda series Koji Kondo has been responsible for the music composition, and in this project he was responsible again. Because the story takes place 100-plus years in the future after The Ocarina of Time, they decided to feature some of the familiar songs from that. They've implemented it in a way that they think will be appropriate, since it's set far in the future from when they were first heard. So, you'll hear familiar themes from The Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask perhaps.

(Taken from an press interview with Mr. Miyamoto and Mr. Aonuma made available at the Zelda Wind Waker site.)

So there's your actual, probably definitive answer (since Mr. Miyamoto never corrected it) - yes, there are sometimes continuous storylines. Ocarina of Time is an obvious choice as the mountains of that game translate well to the island locations of this new title. However, none of this altered Nintendo's course. They did not represent characters ostensibly from the Ocarina of Time universe with Ocarina style graphics, and the map layout is somewhat new and different. So while there may be a "truth," it's not something that they take terribly seriously all the time.

I for one am betting this new title will be arguably seperate from any other Zelda title. Wind Waker's use of "the past" added a fascinating dimension to the series but creating a sort of timeline is fraught with peril (as I pointed out at length). Rather, it is most useful to allow the environments and attitudes of the game speak out for themselves as familiar voices echoing throughout (and sometimes discernable over) the tides of time and change.

[ManekiNeko]

I've always find similar the style of WW desings to one old anime movie called "Wanpaku oji no orochi taiji" (aka "The little prince and the dragon with 8 heads")
It's an old movie from the '60s and it's based in old japanese imperial literature.
[/quote]

Oh yeah, I guess I can see the resemblence. It's kind of hard to tell just from this one tiny picture, though. Unfortunately, the Internet doesn't seem willing to cough up much information about this cartoon.



JR

[Ed Oscuro]

Hmm...looks like Sleeping Beauty, more than a little bit! Yeah, the colors in WW really and truly made the game shine.

Just don't play it without S-Video or you might get some banding when the screen fills with blue :}

[ManekiNeko]

Yup, been there, done that. I was wondering why there were always lines in the center of the screen... I thought maybe my RF adapter was on the fritz.

JR

[Rev. Link]

Excuse me, Ed, but please don't tell me I "don't get it" just because I try to fill in the storyline gaps of a franchise I'm very passionate about. If you don't care that much about it and you just want to enjoy them for the fun games they are, that's fine. If I bother to care about making the storyline cohesive in my head, that's fine too.

ManekiNeko: The Zelda storyline is, IMO, kind of like the end of Neon Genesis Evangelion. You have to fill in a lot of the details on your own, and everyone tends to have their own idea of what really happens. But that's okay. I understand that Nintendo, while being the greatest game maker in the world (IMO), isn't the best in terms of crafting a story. If we, the fans, have to pick up the slack a little, so be it.

In my way of thinking, there have been 4 distinct time periods in the Zelda storyline.

First, came OoT and MM.
Then, about a century later, came TWW.
Then, presumably much later, came ALttP, Oracle, LA, FS, and FSA.
Finally, again much later, came Zelda I and II.

Other people might see it differently, and that's okay too. As long as you can make it work in your own head and be happy with it, it's all good.

[Ed Oscuro]

Excuse me, Ed, but please don't tell me I "don't get it" just because I try to fill in the storyline gaps of a franchise I'm very passionate about. If you don't care that much about it and you just want to enjoy them for the fun games they are, that's fine. If I bother to care about making the storyline cohesive in my head, that's fine too.

If nothing else, just look at it as my own belief that it's a waste of time and counterproductive to being able to enjoy the game as it was meant to be. Of course they've come out and said that Wind Waker is set in the Ocarina of Time "universe," and so be it.

[Jive3D]

Funny how I noticed this topic the day after I beat WW. Just beat it last night. And I would first like to say that though the ending seemed anti climactic, it did the job, at least I didnt give the finger to the screen like I did at the end of the matrix revolutions. The final battle with gannon was annoying and incredible lame that you can kill him in one shot if timed right (that is once you get the part where you have to ricochet Zelda's golden arrow shots).

Anyway, Why are you guys saying that Zelda 1 & II (NES) take place much farther in the future than anything else? Couldnt zelda 1 just take place ANYWHERE within the timeline? Like in the legend/story being told at the begining of WW, the hero of time would appear from no where to battle evil, and that sure seems to be what happens in Zelda 1, the screen opens and Link appears as if from nowhere to shove some metal up gannon's ass.

[Rev. Link]

Jive3D: Did you start the series from the beginning? They make it pretty clear that Zelda I and II are the farthest along in the timeline. When the third game came out, they made it clear that it was a prequel, set much further back in the timeline (hence the name, A Link to the Past). In ALttP, they make relate the story, by way of ancient Hylian legends, of how Ganon first finds the Triforce and becomes the pig monster. This happens further back in the timeline, in OoT.

[Jive3D]

Yeah I have played every zelda game as it was released from the begining. I guess I just never picked up on the chronology. But I guess it does make sense that 1 & 2 would take place so far after everything else. I'll have to play ALTTP again, that last time I played it (second playthrough) was in '99.

oh well whatever.

[musical]

It's revealed in the game that there have been several Links throughout the history of the series....

I don't remember that revelation anywhere in the game. I think you read that somewhere else. On the contrary, Wind Waker said there was only ONE Link.

That suggests to me this chronology:
- N64's Link - The Hero of Time - he was the FIRST Link. Likewise, that was the FIRST Ganandorf and the FIRST Zelda. Ocarina of Time was the genesis of the fairy tale.

- Cube's Link - the guy with the Wind Waker wand. - 100 years later. And the descendent of Zelda (Tetra).

- So where do the NES and Super Nintendo games fit? Answer: Somewhere in the distant future.... thousands of years later. In effect, they are a different era and FAR removed from the 3D Zeldas.



Personal Opinion: Wind Waker was a mere shadow of Ocarina of Time. I didn't like this game at all. Yes the graphics were beautiful, the music gorgeous, and I loved the anime style.........but the story and the dungeons and overall game sucked IMHO.

I prefer Ocarina of Time 10 times more.