Definitive series in Retro Gamer...worst writing/research?

[Mayhem]

Fair enough... a lot of people can't stand Edge's writing because it's so pompous, self inflated and up its arse. But I won't comment further heh... and quite often ill researched and written too. Damn, I said I'd stop. Bitter... nah? But Edge gets a lot of flack as well.

Besides most of what goes into RG doesn't come from the internet, all the Making Ofs, and behind the scenes stuff is from the actual people who were there or wrote the games... likewise the interviews.

The only real final word I generally ask is... if you think it's so bad, I'd appreciate seeing how well you can do yourself...

[tom]

Fair enough... a lot of people can't stand Edge's writing because it's so pompous, self inflated and up its arse. But I won't comment further heh... and quite often ill researched and written too. Damn, I said I'd stop. Bitter... nah? But Edge gets a lot of flack as well.

Besides most of what goes into RG doesn't come from the internet, all the Making Ofs, and behind the scenes stuff is from the actual people who were there or wrote the games... likewise the interviews.

The only real final word I generally ask is... if you think it's so bad, I'd appreciate seeing how well you can do yourself...

I could contribute, but I am not writing anymore (I ran my own fanzine in the UK for over 5 years ('87 - '92, Atari 8/16), written for many fanzines including Digital Press (USA), The 2600 Connection (USA), Retro Classix (UK), Portfolio Connection (UK), Atari Entertainment (UK), Lynx User (UK), and I was voted 'best writer of the year' by readers of Retrogames UK (late 90s), a best selling fanzine which ran over a period of 10 years. Further I contributed to one of the first Retro shows in London (wasn't even known as 'Retro' back then), attended and contributed to many UK exhibitions like AMS, held in Uttoxeter, RRL and so forth, and I am sleeping on 2500 (mostly) UK gaming magazines, starting from the early 80s. So I'd say I qualify.

Almost forgot: During the 80s/90s I used Atari XE/FDD, C128/FDD, Apple ][/FDD, all three running side by side, each on their own monitor.

[Mayhem]

Well then a pity... because it sounds as if you'd be the perfect person to do an Atari or Apple piece then.

RG is a mostly UK, partly European centric publication by virtue of its writers and its readers. Hence it is inevitable that a lot of the content will be applicable to people in those regions. Having read many issues of DP myself, I don't think you'll be in a position to deny that the homespun fanzine here caters almost exclusively to American readers.

I see both of us as some of the few who have an expansive knowledge of a lot of different systems. Many people are not like that. Btw my previous comment was really directed at TMC, not yourself. I always say if you don't like what you read, then please have a go yourself and see if you can actually do any better. Most people shut up after that point.

I do have vague recollections of reading some issues of Retro Classix and Retrogames, as I knew both guys in charge of them and visited their shops (whilst they still existed, sadly neither any more). Maybe I read something by yourself then?

To be bluntly honest, the Atari and Apple were the merest of specs impression wise in the UK gaming market, and that I hope you concede is why neither get much mention. I've barely used an Apple II myself, maybe I'll ask the gf to hook hers up when I visit end of this month and we'll have a play through some games.

Since Imagine took over RG, I would agree the range of systems left to cover is starting to get thin. I wonder what most would make of an Apple II piece given so few people in the UK would have used one, but I figure everything deserves an equal coverage. Should it ever get to look at the Bally Astrocade or the RCA for example, then I know things are scraping the barrel

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

(I ran my own fanzine in the UK for over 5 years ('87 - '92, Atari 8/16), written for many fanzines including Digital Press (USA), The 2600 Connection (USA), Retro Classix (UK), Portfolio Connection (UK), Atari Entertainment (UK), Lynx User (UK), and I was voted 'best writer of the year' by readers of Retrogames UK (late 90s), a best selling fanzine which ran over a period of 10 years.

Then you've really got no excuse for making groundless and offensive insults against a professional writer. I'm afraid the problem you've identified here isn't so much "bad research" as "idiot reader syndrome" - you've kinda already proved that point for me by being the sort of anal-retentive spungo who gives a crap about the difference between "II" and "2" (Roman numerals look rubbish in print, confuse readers and should normally be avoided unless there's a specific and important reason for their use. Same goes for stupid affected spellings like "Threeedeep").

However, more pertinently on this occasion, you've failed to either read (the numerous times it's been explained) or figure out for yourself (as anyone with an IQ over double figures could do from reading any one of the Definitive pieces) the fact that The Definitive... doesn't even attempt to cover every single release in a series on every single format. Such a feature would be 20 pages long and incredibly dull to read. (Nor do we cover unofficial homebrew releases like Jaguar Gorf, or the features would be 50 pages long, Or about 200 in the case of Lode Runner.)

The Definitive... has two purposes, oft stated. One is to clear up the tangled mess of confusion and misinformation that surrounds series like Wonder Boy, Gradius and Bubble Bobble. The other is to catalogue interesting developments in gameplay and design throughout a franchise's history, often in obscure releases that nobody's heard of. To appear in the Definitive articles, a version of a game has to either have some unique gameplay feature, or at a pinch something particularly interesting about the story of its development.

Magazine space is finite, and nobody needs or wants to waste half a precious page hearing about 10 conversions of the first Frogger on 10 different formats that all play exactly the same, when the space could be used to tell them something vastly more informative and entertaining instead, like a prototype sequel that was never released but can now be played on emulators. I have nothing against Atari formats - the forthcoming Definitive Space Invaders, for example, includes extremely extensive coverage of Atari-format versions of the game because there's something interesting about them, not because some spoddy, whiny fanboy wants to have his personal favourites acknowledged/vindicated.

I'm perfectly aware of the Atari 7800 versions of Galaga and Xevious, indeed I own the original carts of both. However, the very fact that they're excellent, faithful conversions means they're of no interest to The Definitive, because there's nothing about them that isn't already covered by the entry on the original coin-op. If all you want is a product list, there are plenty of places to find one. (The very website you're posting this on isn't a bad start, though its standards fall well short of what's acceptable to The Definitive.) At RG we prefer to spend our time telling people things they don't already know. The Definitive... has been doing that for the last 17 months, and everyone but you seems to be extremely happy with it, which is why it keeps getting re-commissioned.

Oh, and as for "proper research"? I devote weeks of research to Definitive pieces, rather than just cut-and-pasting from Wikipedia and crappy fansites like most idiot gaming hacks (including those of Edge, which makes more factual errors in an average issue than RG has in its entire history), which is why they're called Definitive. If you can find ONE SINGLE FACTUAL ERROR (ie not some ridiculously pathetic Roman-numerals gripe) in the 100+ pages of Definitives published so far - just ONE - then come back here and share it with us, and maybe your views will be worth half an atom of respect. Until then, Comic Book Guy, as someone's already so wisely suggested: fuck off.

Cheerio!
RSC.

[Ed Oscuro]

Hey, Stuart uses parens as much as I do, so I'm in good company.

*high fives*

If anybody wants to see some writing that really needs some work, check this Shmups Forum thread out.

Maybe some people don't like that I usually stuck up for Zach M. and others, but I always find it refreshing when somebody who knows the writer's craft pays a little attention to our forlorn hobby - compare your local Barnes & Overpriced stocks of Depression Glass and video game buying guides. Knowing stuff...that's a bonus.

Anyway, I intended to write this earlier, but: people are being really harsh on this one. Is the Threeedeep -> Threedeep criticism the major thing levied against the article? That's not a lot to go on.

For my part I always try to stay as close to the often silly originals with game titles, but I think Stuart's explanation holds water (and boils it too).

p.s. let's all smoke a bowl...er forget this anger, and move onto playing for the same team again, please?

[smork]

If anybody wants to see some writing that really needs some work, check this Shmups Forum thread out.

Wow, I can't even make it through that article.

[Ed Oscuro]

Note, that article doesn't reflect on the intelligence of the SHMUPS Forum regular, come join the fun

Great avatar, smork! George C. Scott/Gen. Turgidson, RIP. A bit off the subject, but I did a search and turned this up, funny stuff.

[tom]

Same goes for stupid affected spellings like "Threeedeep").

Cheerio!
RSC.

And there's where your professionalism goes right down the pan. And it's your first posting too. Shame.

[smork]

Note, that article doesn't reflect on the intelligence of the SHMUPS Forum regular, come join the fun

Great avatar, smork! George C. Scott/Gen. Turgidson, RIP. A bit off the subject, but I did a search and turned this up, funny stuff.

That's a pretty funny article. I sure hope we aren't allowing a mine shaft gap, either.

You know, I was going to join SHMUPS last year or so when there was a Judgement Silversword discussion ongoing, but they didn't like my Yahoo mail account so I got discouraged. I should go register again...

[Vectorman0]

Tom, you're being pretty harsh over one normalized name. I do think that a paragraph could be used to mention the multitude of releases any series has seen.

That said, I think the magazine is great (infinitely better than any North American magazine) and I can't complain about a single thing other than the subscription cost in the US ($160). It isn't overly unreasonable, but beyond my means.

If all you want is a product list, there are plenty of places to find one. (The very website you're posting this on isn't a bad start, though its standards fall well short of what's acceptable to The Definitive.)

What would be an acceptable alternative?

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

What would be an acceptable alternative?

I haven't found a single totally reliable one. DP is pretty good, but misses a lot of stuff (at least three Space Invaders games on the Playstation 1, for example), Mobygames catches some of the gaps but makes glaring errors of its own (you wouldn't believe the number of games they have me down as co-author of), Wikipedia is often very good but almost as often full of repeated fallacies from elsewhere, and so on and so forth. Ultimately, all you can do it try to gather information from many different sources and see how they tie up with each other, and the only way to be absolutely sure is to buy the games for yourself and then write features about them in Retro Gamer for everyone except Tom to enjoy.

[Mayhem]

DP is pretty good, but misses a lot of stuff (at least three Space Invaders games on the Playstation 1, for example)

DP is primarily a US website, and hopefully everything released in that country should be complete. The other regions are still working their way towards that, after all a list is only as good as the person(s) putting it together and the amount of time they can devote...

[Kitsune Sniper]

... Mobygames catches some of the gaps but makes glaring errors of its own (you wouldn't believe the number of games they have me down as co-author of)

If you want to have those errors corrected, then drop us a line (I'm an approver there and a frequent contributor as well). There's lots of people with the same name, and sometimes mistakes are made when credits are contributed. If you let us know, then we'll fix the problem.

I don't really care for the rest of this post, I just don't like to see Moby get bashed.