Is there really a convincing argument for the 7800 over NES?

[Aswald]

What about colors shown/resolution?

Atari used to brag about how the 5200 was "better than the CV because it was 320 to 256." But what they didn't say was that, while in that mode, the 5200 could only show black and white, with maybe artificial green and purple. So it was the CV that could actually put prettier pictures on the screen.

And, of course, the 7800 could handle much more on-screen movement.

So was this a case of technical superiority, or just that the SMS and NES were utilized more effectively, like the way Opcode can program impossible-seeming games on the CV?

[ubersaurus]

What about colors shown/resolution?

Atari used to brag about how the 5200 was "better than the CV because it was 320 to 256." But what they didn't say was that, while in that mode, the 5200 could only show black and white, with maybe artificial green and purple. So it was the CV that could actually put prettier pictures on the screen.

And, of course, the 7800 could handle much more on-screen movement.

So was this a case of technical superiority, or just that the SMS and NES were utilized more effectively, like the way Opcode can program impossible-seeming games on the CV?

I'd go for the latter choice, although it's more simply a case of the 7800 architecture being so damn different from that of the other two, that making an effective strengths and weaknesses chart against them is a pain.

The resolution of the 7800 was mentioned, but unmentioned was that it had multiple resolution modes, most of which were never used for a whole lot due to less depth of color. Interestingly enough, the 7800 can display different resolution on different parts of the screen-I'm not aware that the NES can do that without the help of mappers.

[boatofcar]

This is getting too technical! :P Just kidding, tech specs are part of the argument, but to me the proof is in the pudding.

I know someone mentioned Commando, are there any other games that look better on the 7800 than on the NES? Screenshots would be great

[Dr. Morbis]

I know someone mentioned Commando, are there any other games that look better on the 7800 than on the NES? Screenshots would be great

Actually, I forgot to mention Joust. The NES version is good, but damn, the 7800 version is PERFECT. If you are a fan of Joust, it's worth getting a 7800 for that alone. Also, 7800 Ballblazer mops the floor with the famicom version, but that's a pretty obscure game anyway.

All in all, the 7800 is worth getting if you are fan of the NES/SMS era. It completes the trinity of 8bit systems from that era and it has definitive versions of some of Atari's great arcade games (ie: Ateroids rocks).

[ubersaurus]

This is getting too technical! :P Just kidding, tech specs are part of the argument, but to me the proof is in the pudding.

I know someone mentioned Commando, are there any other games that look better on the 7800 than on the NES? Screenshots would be great

Screenshots are tough since 7800 emulators tend to have colors off from the actual console. As far as multiplatform releases, let me think...

7800 looks better:
Commando
Ballblazer
Joust
Ikari Warriors
Tower Toppler(vs Castelian or whatever the fuck the NES port was called)
Winter Games
Xenophobe

Comparable graphics:
Xevious
Donkey Kong
Donkey Kong Junior
Dig Dug
Klax
Kung Fu/Kung Fu Master

Nes looks better:
Double Dragon
Rampage
Galaga
Ms. Pac-Man
Mario Bros

[bangtango]

Dug up from the dead.

[BydoEmpire]

the 7800 controllers are superb for the time

Wow. I bought a 7800 shortly after getting a NES. I never, EVER thought the controllers were superb. Barely usable, actually. And the lack of buttons have nothing to do with. My apologies if you're talking about the Euro 7800 joypads as I hear those are pretty decent. The stock ProLines are probably my least favorite controllers ever.

I think the 7800 was capable of much more than it showed, it just didn't have enough support for people to push it the way they did the NES. I don't know that you can make a convincing argument for it over the 7800, though.

[DefaultGen]

7800 can be collected easily since it has under 100 games and only a small handful of rarities. NES has hundreds of games and many worth $100s. Is that a pro?

[MarioMania]

The 7800 has more power then the NES

Atari or 3rd Comp didn't take the 7800 to it's Limit, They only used like 50% of the Hardwear..

[boatofcar]

Dug up from the dead.

Thanks for bumping this--I had no idea I started this 2 years ago!

[Arcade Antics]

Come. On. Fhqwhgads.

[idrougge]

7800 is capable of 100 sprites on screen at once; NES is capable of 64 sprites at once.

That is only half the truth. The NES could display only 8 sprites on a row, leading to flicker when that limit was surpassed. I don't know if the same is the case with the 7800.

[idrougge]

I've always assumed that the NES had "tricks" whether it were mapper chips or other methods of improving its output. Case in point, many of the NES games looked better than C64 games, and if you look at the resolution, the C64's was higher.

The C64 halved its horizontal resolution when using multi-colour. Only few C64 games used the high resolution mode, since it made the screen look more like the ZX Spectrum with attribute clash. Some did it to great effect though, especially those mixing high and low res sprites and backgrounds.

[idrougge]

One thing in particular makes me think that the 7800 had a lot of hidden potential, and that is its younger sibling, the Lynx. Lynx games tended to look quite bad, even if you take its low resolution into account. But there are games, especially the winter sports game released a few years ago, that go to prove how much wasted potential the Lynx had, thanks to Atari's tendency to port old in-house titles and use less than excellent subcontractors.

[Aswald]

In a practical, realistic way, absolutely not.

You can argue back and forth about the techno-this-and-that, but what ultimately matters is the practical.

The NES had far more games than the 7800.

The NES and its games and accessories (e.g. light gun) were far easier to find than those of the 7800.

The NES had a much bigger VARIETY of games than the 7800. RPGs? Scrolling Level/Boss games? One-On-One fighters? Board games?

The NES had many current or recent games, something the 7800 was just too lacking in- and of those more or less recent games it did have, those could be found on the NES anyway.

The NES had a number of games found on the 7800. Joust, Xevious, Galaga, Rampage, Double Dragon, One-On-One Basketball..

Service for the NES was better.

Nintendo was big enough back then to, shall we say, "persuade" many stores to sort of not try too hard for the 7800.


Granted, the 7800 was better at handling on-screen motion- in fact, it was better at it than the SMS- but it wasn't enough. Atari was really finished in 1984.

[Rob2600]

Lynx games tended to look quite bad, even if you take its low resolution into account.

I received a Lynx in 1990 as a gift and eventually owned several games. I thought the graphics were great in many of the games, like California Games, Electrocop, Klax, Ninja Gaiden, etc. When I take into account the Lynx was a portable console and it was released in 1989, that makes the graphics even more impressive to me. Overall, the few developers that were supporting the Lynx made good use of its capabilities.

Regarding the 7800, the technology and support just wasn't there. What good is having a console that can display over 100 sprites simultaneously if they all consist of two colors each and are very blocky? Similarly, what good is having a "high resolution" mode if it limits the entire screen to only two colors?

Compare games like Super Mario Bros. 2, Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!, Mega Man 2, Track & Field II, etc. on the NES to the equivalent games on the 7800. Overall, which ones look, sound, and play better? My answer is the NES games.

[idrougge]

Compare games like Super Mario Bros. 2, Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!, Mega Man 2, Track & Field II, etc. on the NES to the equivalent games on the 7800. Overall, which ones look, sound, and play better? My answer is the NES games.

My argument is that those games wouldn't have looked very good if they had been developed by the outfits who did the 7800 catalogue.

[Aswald]

Too true.

Look at a game like Tower Toppler. THAT was what the 7800 could do.

The 7800 was "the little system that could have." Had it been released in late 1984 (we'll assume nobody was mad about the 5200 for a moment), then it would have had a two year head start on the NES. Honestly, I don't think the NES would've stood a chance; the 7800 would have been too firmly established.

But I've said this before, and I'll say it again- looking at some of Opcode's games for the ColecoVision, and the incredible Lord of the Dingeon, and at the Sean Kelly-released Millipede and Super Pac-Man (not to mention Adventure 2 recently released), as well as my own digital controller (Atari could therefore have easily done it!) for the 5200, and it becomes obvious that those two THIRD-GENERATION systems, had they not been victims of that stupid 1984 crash, could have easily matched the NES.

[Rob2600]

My argument is that those games wouldn't have looked very good if they had been developed by the outfits who did the 7800 catalogue.

You may be right, but based on the specs I've seen for the NES and the 7800, the NES can produce overall better graphics and sound.

[Rob2600]

Look at a game like Tower Toppler. THAT was what the 7800 could do.

The NES had long, involved games like The Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Castlevania II, Super Mario Bros. 3, etc. What were the equivalent games on the 7800?

Could the 7800 produce the same level of graphics found in Track and Field II, Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!, Contra, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: The Arcade Game, etc.?

Could the 7800 produce the same level of audio in Ninja Gaiden, Mega Man II, Blades of Steel, Blaster Master, etc.?

Another issue is the control. Did good 7800 games play as smoothly as good NES games?

I don't have nearly as much experience with the 7800 as I do with the NES, so I'm curious to hear the answers.

[theoakwoody]

Too true.

The 7800 was "the little system that could have." Had it been released in late 1984 (we'll assume nobody was mad about the 5200 for a moment), then it would have had a two year head start on the NES. Honestly, I don't think the NES would've stood a chance; the 7800 would have been too firmly established.

How could the Nes have not stood a chance because of the 7800 being in the market place? Look at how many systems have been released earlier but still failed to win that generation's console war. TG16, Saturn, Dreamcast. In fact, the 360 is starting to buck this trend although I think the Wii and PS3 will end up selling more units. Back in the mid 80s video games weren't popular so there may not have been room for more than one system to succeed. Up to that point there had only been an Atari monopoly so if the Tramiels hadn't shelved the 7800s in '84 it might have seen a little more success. The real problem is that there was too much focus on giving people that arcade experience at home. The Nes took a different approach and made games that were different and deeper. Arcade games are what I call "ADD" type games. Fast paced action, try to get the highest score, simple straight forward gameplay. It seems like Atari fell in love with their arcade ports and forgot about what their 3rd party competitors like Activision were doing.

The 7800 would have had to focus more on "must have" titles that were unique to the system. A killer pack-in wouldn't have hurt either. Super Mario Bros. single handedly sold millions of NES's. How many 7800 titles were system sellers? I guess Playstation did okay with Ridger Racer but Pole Position II is kind of weak. Bottom line, the NES would have still done well in the US regardless of the 7800 having success in '84 and '85.

[Ed Oscuro]

[The designer said] that graphically, the 7800 was better than the NES, yet not as good as the SMS.

So this is one of the guys from the "lol moar colors = BETTER" camp, eh?

I'd like to see somebody port Recca to the 7800, then (SMS, too, but Power Strike II gives it street cred).

[ubersaurus]

So this is one of the guys from the "lol moar colors = BETTER" camp, eh?

I'd like to see somebody port Recca to the 7800, then (SMS, too, but Power Strike II gives it street cred).

So would I. It'd be pretty badass. I've no doubt the system could handle it(although the high res mode would probably be a better option for a game like that).

[Aswald]

How could the Nes have not stood a chance because of the 7800 being in the market place? Look at how many systems have been released earlier but still failed to win that generation's console war. TG16, Saturn, Dreamcast. In fact, the 360 is starting to buck this trend although I think the Wii and PS3 will end up selling more units. Back in the mid 80s video games weren't popular so there may not have been room for more than one system to succeed. Up to that point there had only been an Atari monopoly so if the Tramiels hadn't shelved the 7800s in '84 it might have seen a little more success. The real problem is that there was too much focus on giving people that arcade experience at home. The Nes took a different approach and made games that were different and deeper. Arcade games are what I call "ADD" type games. Fast paced action, try to get the highest score, simple straight forward gameplay. It seems like Atari fell in love with their arcade ports and forgot about what their 3rd party competitors like Activision were doing.

The 7800 would have had to focus more on "must have" titles that were unique to the system. A killer pack-in wouldn't have hurt either. Super Mario Bros. single handedly sold millions of NES's. How many 7800 titles were system sellers? I guess Playstation did okay with Ridger Racer but Pole Position II is kind of weak. Bottom line, the NES would have still done well in the US regardless of the 7800 having success in '84 and '85.

Yes, but you forget- we are talking about Atari in the 1980s here.
Back then, Atari was one of the most beloved names in video gaming. Since the disaster known as "Tramielitis" had not yet occurred, Atari was not yet the bad joke it became after 1984.

If you were around then, then you remember how "Atari" was one single big entity- it included home computers, home consoles, AND the arcade division.

This was a key difference between the days of the 2600/5200 and the 7800: during the days of the 5200, 5200 owners could expect any popular Atari arcade games to appear on the 5200, at least first. This is why Centipede, for example, did without any problem, and Tempest was what "everyone knew" would appear.

Compare this to the 7800 days. "Atari" was now two entities; one for home consoles, one for arcade games. No longer could you automatically expect games, like Klax, Rolling Thunder, and Rampart to appear on an Atari console just because "Atari" was on the arcade game- it might just as well have said "Mongomuladasa, Inc."


As for the variety- how many times haven't I said just that, including right in this thread? It is inconceivable to me as to why at least one RPG, at least one Gradius-style game- hell, even put Vanguard out for the 7800, at least it would have been SOMETHING!- did not appear on the 7800 during those crucial years.

There were a number of computer games and obscure arcade games that could have been available.


As for graphics- the 7800 was actually much better than you'd think. Ignore screenshots; they never get it right. THE strength of the 7800 was its ability to handle plenty of on-screen motion. So, if you want a more colorful character, merely superimpose 2 or more together. Your character in Joust had 10 different colors.

The real problem for the 7800 was the fact that it wasn't really released until after the NES was established. By then, they were the only real name in town, closing off many game routes for Atari- something that would not have happened if it had been released in 1984. The NES would have been up against an iron wall here, because by then, Atari would have had the contracts and the presence. You speak of Pole Position 2, but don't forget; in those two or three crucial years, Atari would've had the rights to later games- that "connection" I spoke of would have been there. 1984- 1985- who do you think the game companies would have made their deals with? We can look back with hindsight at what WOULD soon happen; but back then, it was Atari, because who could have seen the NES coming? It didn't really exist yet, as far as anyone here knew!

[theoakwoody]

The real problem for the 7800 was the fact that it wasn't really released until after the NES was established. By then, they were the only real name in town, closing off many game routes for Atari- something that would not have happened if it had been released in 1984. The NES would have been up against an iron wall here, because by then, Atari would have had the contracts and the presence. You speak of Pole Position 2, but don't forget; in those two or three crucial years, Atari would've had the rights to later games- that "connection" I spoke of would have been there. 1984- 1985- who do you think the game companies would have made their deals with? We can look back with hindsight at what WOULD soon happen; but back then, it was Atari, because who could have seen the NES coming? It didn't really exist yet, as far as anyone here knew!

It doesn't matter who would have signed on with atari because Nintendo brought the Japanese companies with them. Namco, Konami, and Capcom would not have signed on with Atari. I'm not saying that American developers and publishers would not have made the 7800 more of a success but they didn't do much for the NES. The games that stand out in most people's minds are the first party games and other Japanese companies. I guess Rare made quite a few great games but I don't see how they would have had a relationship with Atari either. I just think to say the NES was going up against an iron wall is going a bit far. They already did in that no stores wanted to touch a video game with a ten foot pole. If Atari had managed to avoid the video game crash I think it would have actually helped Nintendo to become popular, faster. They wouldn't have had to worry about the stigma of the crash or marketing the NES as an entertainment system with a robot instead of a video game machine.