The Gamecube is dead ! serious, "The Post" said so

[Promophile]

Grandia 2 has a PC version, and lots of others too. For the short story, WD wasn't able to release Lunar on the PC due to "not being able to get some program delivered". To appease people they released a fanart version of Lunar for PS1. I think ZM may be able to explain it better, I think he may have worked with Vic.

The (hideous) fan-art version of SSSC wasn't to make amends for the PC cock-up, but to cash in on Victor's best-selling game of all time without technically breaking his full-page-advertised promise that SSSC--the original deluxe-packaging version--would never be reprinted.

The PC version of SSSC never happened because 1) it was buggy as hell, 2) it was an embarrassingly primitive game that would have been critically lambasted, and 3) it wouldn't have sold enough copies to be worth Victor's time or money. At that point in Working Designs' existence, Victor had gotten accustomed to selling an average of 30-40K units per PS1 game. Lunar PC would have been lucky to crack 5K, given the sorry-ass state of the PC gaming market at the time.

-- Z.

Yea I didn't really think that the public statment about the reasons was true, but thats all I had to go on.

[goatdan]

I ask because I can't believe Dragon Warrior VII would be on the chart if it was US only, but I also can't believe that Super Mario Brothers 2 would be so high on the list if it was only the US version of the game.

It's a worldwide chart. DW7 alone confirms that. As for the SMB2 listing, I assume the total includes both the U.S. version of SMB2 and the Japanese version of America's SMB2, called Super Mario Bros. USA over there, not the wholly different Japanese SMB2. Since the number almost certainly came from Nintendo itself, I doubt the two games were lumped together.

Aha! That makes sense. I was trying to figure that out...

And whoever it was that asked about Duck Hunt, that's a good question. My random guess is that Duck Hunt was included on 75% of the SMB / DH combos, and would therefore rank 5th.

So you think that three out of every four Super Mario Bros. carts is actually a SMB/Duck Hunt combo? Was the combo cart released early enough in the NES's lifespan to make that feasible?

Honestly, from what I've seen as a dealer, I would wager that as a fair guess. The NES Action Set was released shortly after the ROB thing didn't work out and included the cart.

Currently in stock, I have 42 copies of Super Mario Brothers / Duck Hunt. I have five copies of Super Mario Brothers stand alone and two copies of Duck Hunt standalone. From checking our records, in the past year we've sold 10 copies of SMB / DH and 1 copy of SMB. So in my mini-snapshot, I have seen 52 copies of SMB / DH versus 6 copies of SMB.

On top of that, in my visits to various GameStops (well, Funcolands then) in the past five years for collection / GOAT Store purchases, I have definitely seen at least the same ratio. I definitely feel that a 75 / 25 split would be fair.

One last bit of evidence -- In the old Funco newspapers, SMB alone was always more expensive than SMB / DH. They got as close as .19 and .09, but they were never equal. I'd assume this was from a surplus of the combo, as they also have done this with the Xbox titles (JSRF / Sega GT costs 3.99 together or 5.99 apiece apart, I'd assume for the same reason).

And goatdan, thanks for agreeing with me. I WANTED to say as high as a million people for a RPG that sells a quarter as many copies, but that seemed TOO high. I'm glad someone else said it. I really don't see what the companies that make RPG's can do to help with that, either....make the games longer, I guess, or add more stuff to encourge replay. That would encourge more copies to be bought because gamers would want to hold on to theirs.

I look at it this way -- my copy of Earthbound has been loaned to four people this past year who all played through it. I bought my copy used, so it had to have gone through at least one other person than me. Just combining that, and you've got five people on one copy of a game.

And again, going off my mini-market with the GOAT Store, I can guarantee that RPGs that we get in sell quicker than non-RPG games. I've had copies of certain games sell within minutes of posting them. It is a little harder to get them because of cost, but it doesn't seem like people are unwilling to sell most of them.

To be honest, I don't think that many used gaming stores track how a game was selling, but instead how many copies they had. For instance, if Gamestop has 2 million copies of Madden 2002 in stock, it isn't going to be worth a lot of money and they will need to discount it to $3.00 to move it. If they only had 10,000 copies of a game in stock, they could leave it at a higher price if it is in more demand. Balancing those numbers is what makes you come up with a "general public" market value for games:

Quantity on hand + demand = approximate cost

It doesn't have much to do with the game itself. That's why Funco would sell games like Stadium Events for 0.29 cents and Contra for $19.99. Stadium Events didn't move in a non-collector world (although it would now) while Contra was an extremely popular game that many people with a NES bought and kept.

Just some general thoughts. I'm operating on a lot of stuff that I've learned over the past couple years that may or may not be right, based on the little world of the GOAT Store

[zmweasel]

Zach, you say the game was buggy -- that implies it was at LEAST playable. Did you ever play it? Remember anything about it? Who was actually responsible for working on it? Might there still be a early version floating around? I know you can't talk much in length about what happened during your time with WD, but I've never seen ANYTHING about this anywhere and I'm eager for some inside information, as much or as little as you can share. :)

Yep, I played the PC Lunar a bit. Its one redeeming quality was that its movie clips were in their original 640x480 rez, not 320x240 or whatever the PS1 clips were squashed to. I used the raw frames to illustrate the SSSC strategy guide, although I could've gotten away with screen grabs because the pics were so small. (I boosted the size of in-game screenshots in the EB guide, but left the movie-clip pictures the same.)

The PC version made me fantasize about a Lunar 1/2 remake for the PS2, with all the movie clips in their original gorgeousness (and subtitled Japanese or dubbed English as the player desired). DVD-Rs weren't cheap or easy enough to burn back then--and I wasn't capable enough with video-editng programs back then--for me to make a disc of the anime clips for personal consumption. While Victor is very kindly speaking to me these days (he'd be well within his rights to tell me to screw off forever), I doubt he'd let me pop into the office to fulfill my cheesy fantasy.

The entire PC version ran at 640x480, actually, but most of the graphics had been double-sized and retouched, not redrawn from scratch. Yuck. I don't recall any music, which makes me guess it hadn't yet been implemented. Maybe it was some awful Sound Blaster tunage that my mind has since blocked out.

I vaguely recall that the PC version had been worked on by some Korean company. Beyond that, I couldn't tell you who was responsible for it.

I'm sure Victor has at least one version of it. He has versions of everything. Probably the coolest Lunar thing he's got is a one-of-a-kind "Beanie Baby Ghaleon" produced by a clueless Asian company during the endless search for a Ghaleon-puppet manufacturer. He also has the Alex-puppet prototype seen on the back of the Ghaleon puppet's box...unless we destroyed that during the office "play-testing sessions." Good times!

The PC Lunar wasn't a big loss, honest. It wasn't different or improved enough from the PS1 version, and it would've been flame-broiled by critics. The only reason for anyone to get it would've been to obtain the Alex puppet. (The deal was gonna be that if you sent in the POPs from Lunar 2 on the PS1 and Lunar 1 on the PC, you got an Alex puppet.)

Have I mentioned how nostalgic I've become for the WD days? :)

-- Z.

[Nick Goracke]

The vast majority of Dragon Warrior VII's sales were in Japan; it tanked in North America. (The English localization was horrific, inexplicably farmed out to a fansite crew. Man, could I rant about that for years.)

Please do. I'd like to hear the story.

[Nick Goracke]

I'd readily agree that American RPGs on the Xbox are a helluva lot closer to the mainstream than Japanese RPGs on the PS2.

-- Z.

How do you figure?

Fable has the first party push... (and as an aside, you said 1-million sold-IN?)

Star Wars wasn't marketed as an RPG...

Morrowing is a "best seller", but is it even in the X-Box top 10? 20? (I have no idea, but it never struck me as anywhere near mainstream)

I'm not sure any of these 3 make a compelling case.

At the very least, the PS2 has FFX.

[SoulBlazer]

Thanks for the information about the PC attempt on Lunar Silver Star.

And yeah, I'd like to hear that DW 7 story also.

I used to be a big fan of the Dragon Warrior series, but when I played 7 I thought it was bad for several reasons -- mainly it did'nt feel like it had evolved since the days of 1 and 2, poor story, and borring gameplay. I never noticed the translation.

[SegaAges]

dude, the cube rocks.

i own more games for that than i do for xbox.

granted, i own more ps2 games than cube games, but ps2 came out 1st and has rugby games!!!!!!!!!!!

[zmweasel]

Fable has the first party push... (and as an aside, you said 1-million sold-IN?)

According to Microsoft, one million sold in.

Star Wars wasn't marketed as an RPG...

Much of the early excitement surrounding KotOR had to with the fact that it was the first Star Wars video game RPG, and from one of the best American RPG developers, Neverwinter Nights' BioWare. The game's own website calls it a "role-playing experience." Where did you see KotOR not acknowledged by LucasArts as an RPG?

Morrowing is a "best seller", but is it even in the X-Box top 10? 20? (I have no idea, but it never struck me as anywhere near mainstream)

I don't know that it's an Xbox all-time top ten. I do know that it was a rave-reviewed port of a very popular (by PC standards) RPG, and received two Xbox releases, the latter a "Game of the Year" edition with additional content from the PC version's two expansion packs. I doubt the latter would've happened had the former been a flop at retail.

At the very least, the PS2 has FFX.

We've already noted the FF series as the one JRPG franchise to make it big in America, thanks to Sony's enormous FF7 marketing push. I often wonder where Square Enix would be in America (and Japan) without that mighty assist.

-- Z.

[calthaer]

RPGs, like most games, aren't released on a timetable that is long enough to build interest and get people to buy games. The people who like RPGs are most likely playing RPGs. These games take a long time to finish. If I hear about an RPG that has been released, I will most likely not pick it up until I've finished the one I'm on. If they kept those things on shelves longer than 3-6 months, they might see greater sales over time. Unfortunately, the relatively quick turnover in hardware and whatnot means that good games - especially RPGs - never get the release window necessary to build up steam.

[Promophile]

Zach, you say the game was buggy -- that implies it was at LEAST playable. Did you ever play it? Remember anything about it? Who was actually responsible for working on it? Might there still be a early version floating around? I know you can't talk much in length about what happened during your time with WD, but I've never seen ANYTHING about this anywhere and I'm eager for some inside information, as much or as little as you can share.

Yep, I played the PC Lunar a bit. Its one redeeming quality was that its movie clips were in their original 640x480 rez, not 320x240 or whatever the PS1 clips were squashed to. I used the raw frames to illustrate the SSSC strategy guide, although I could've gotten away with screen grabs because the pics were so small. (I boosted the size of in-game screenshots in the EB guide, but left the movie-clip pictures the same.)

The PC version made me fantasize about a Lunar 1/2 remake for the PS2, with all the movie clips in their original gorgeousness (and subtitled Japanese or dubbed English as the player desired). DVD-Rs weren't cheap or easy enough to burn back then--and I wasn't capable enough with video-editng programs back then--for me to make a disc of the anime clips for personal consumption. While Victor is very kindly speaking to me these days (he'd be well within his rights to tell me to screw off forever), I doubt he'd let me pop into the office to fulfill my cheesy fantasy.

The entire PC version ran at 640x480, actually, but most of the graphics had been double-sized and retouched, not redrawn from scratch. Yuck. I don't recall any music, which makes me guess it hadn't yet been implemented. Maybe it was some awful Sound Blaster tunage that my mind has since blocked out.

I vaguely recall that the PC version had been worked on by some Korean company. Beyond that, I couldn't tell you who was responsible for it.

I'm sure Victor has at least one version of it. He has versions of everything. Probably the coolest Lunar thing he's got is a one-of-a-kind "Beanie Baby Ghaleon" produced by a clueless Asian company during the endless search for a Ghaleon-puppet manufacturer. He also has the Alex-puppet prototype seen on the back of the Ghaleon puppet's box...unless we destroyed that during the office "play-testing sessions." Good times!

The PC Lunar wasn't a big loss, honest. It wasn't different or improved enough from the PS1 version, and it would've been flame-broiled by critics. The only reason for anyone to get it would've been to obtain the Alex puppet. (The deal was gonna be that if you sent in the POPs from Lunar 2 on the PS1 and Lunar 1 on the PC, you got an Alex puppet.)

Have I mentioned how nostalgic I've become for the WD days?

-- Z.

Interesting read. I always did wonder whatever happened to the alex puppets. Personally I woulda much rather prefered having the alex one over the ghaleon one .

[Nick Goracke]

According to Microsoft, one million sold in.

Curious how many have sold through...

In any case, I'm guessing that FFX leads by a pretty fair margin?

Much of the early excitement surrounding KotOR had to with the fact that it was the first Star Wars video game RPG, and from one of the best American RPG developers, Neverwinter Nights' BioWare. The game's own website calls it a "role-playing experience." Where did you see KotOR not acknowledged by LucasArts as an RPG?

Simply going by the guidlines you used to describe FFVII's marketing. Not sure I agree with it, but lets just draw a parallel...

FFVII's TV commercials didn't focus on the RPG gameplay. The draw was the cinematics.

SWKotR commercials didn't focus on the RPG gameplay. The draw was the ability to "choose the light or dark side", and I'll be perfectly honest - it looked like an action game to me (didn't find out otherwise until months later).

Point being (I have one!) that both enjoyed mainstream success because they were cleverly marketed. Just so happened their "action" was menu-based...

We've already noted the FF series as the one JRPG franchise to make it big in America, thanks to Sony's enormous FF7 marketing push. I often wonder where Square Enix would be in America (and Japan) without that mighty assist.

They would've been better off. Probably wouldn't have spent billions making a movie aimed for a US audience if it weren't for that extra boost.

[goatdan]

Fable has the first party push... (and as an aside, you said 1-million sold-IN?)

Fable had a first party push... but that doesn't guarantee that the game will be well received, just that it will probably sell well. Fable sold well and was crictically acclaimed. I haven't played it, but it sounds like a winner to me.

Star Wars wasn't marketed as an RPG...

Have you played Star Wars? The game is marketed as more of an RPG that American audiences can relate with than most of the Japanese releases -- the game specifically explains that it is rolling dice to make things happen. Just like Dungeons and Dragons. In fact, on the back of the KOTOR Xbox case:

A brand new Star Wars role-playing experience with unique characters, creatures, vehicles and planets

Morrowing is a "best seller", but is it even in the X-Box top 10? 20? (I have no idea, but it never struck me as anywhere near mainstream)

Considering that a sequel was made to the game, even though it was also a PC game, I think that pretty much speaks for itself. Top ten best sellers? I don't know about that... but I wouldn't doubt that the other two on this list are knocking on that door if they aren't already there.

I'm not sure any of these 3 make a compelling case.

At the very least, the PS2 has FFX.

Which proved so popular that the new PStwo doesn't even support the hard drive? Other than the Final Fantasy series, which PS2 RPG game or series is notable? I know of Grandia II because I loved the Dreamcast game, but beyond that... Final Fantasy is all that I can come up with.

For once, I actually agree completely with Zach. The Xbox RPGs have been a lot more mainstream than RPGs on other consoles. Of the above, two are already Platinum Hits games that can be purchased for $20.00 or less. RPGs that aren't mainstream usually don't become part of the greatest hit series... are there any for the Playstation 2 or GameCube that are? I really don't know, but I wouldn't think so.

[mhsy2a]

I'm not sure any of these 3 make a compelling case.

At the very least, the PS2 has FFX.

Which proved so popular that the new PStwo doesn't even support the hard drive? Other than the Final Fantasy series, which PS2 RPG game or series is notable? I know of Grandia II because I loved the Dreamcast game, but beyond that... Final Fantasy is all that I can come up with.

For once, I actually agree completely with Zach. The Xbox RPGs have been a lot more mainstream than RPGs on other consoles. Of the above, two are already Platinum Hits games that can be purchased for $20.00 or less. RPGs that aren't mainstream usually don't become part of the greatest hit series... are there any for the Playstation 2 or GameCube that are? I really don't know, but I wouldn't think so.

Final Fantasy XI was the online version, not Final Fantasy X.

As far as Greatest Hits RPGs on PS2, I can think of Final Fantasy X, Kingdom Hearts, and Dark Cloud off the top of my head. There are probably a couple other RPGs that are capable of becoming Greatest Hits as well: Suidoken 3, the dot Hack series, Final Fantasy X-2.

Personally, I believe that the PS2 is a little more "mainstream" then Xbox when it comes to RPGs.

[dracula]

http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=020246

use the coupon code "holidaygc" to get a free game under $30.

(pulled from cheapassgamer.com)

Today i can buy a gamecube + one controller + mario kart DD(a $50 game) plus a $30 game of my choice($30), plus get a $15 gift card, all of this is for $99:
this puts the value of a new cube with new controller and all hookups at $5...

I still refuse to get this cube bundle, i already own one cube and never play it... I cant wait to see what sort of cube deals come out next christmas, i bet some stores will clearance these bundles out at $10 to $20 next christmas bc even now no one is buying this bundle for $99.

[dethink]

i need mario kart and two more controllers...

a spare GC thrown in sweetens the deal.

[Nick Goracke]

At the very least, the PS2 has FFX.

Which proved so popular that the new PStwo doesn't even support the hard drive?

...

RPGs that aren't mainstream usually don't become part of the greatest hit series... are there any for the Playstation 2 or GameCube that are? I really don't know, but I wouldn't think so.

First of all, I assume you're talking about FFXI, not X. FFXI is certainly not mainstream (it's an online RPG. I mean, come on!), but for this type of game, the userbase is quite large.

Yes, there are PS2 RPGs in the Greatest Hits line (if that's supposed to be a measurement of "mainstream"). FFX, Xenosaga and Dark Cloud come immediately to mind.

For the record...

I don't think J-RPGs are mainstream. Neither are A-RPGs (which is the only reason I jumped on this post). There's a few on each side that have sold well because of licenses and huge marketing pushes.

And I think the wrong angle is being taken in trying to prove it. You can tell if a genre is "mainstream" or not by how many garbage releases are put into it every year.

Take it a step further (how this thread got derailed so much, I'll never know ). You can tell how healthy a system is by the number of garbage releases put onti it every year. Where does this put the GC?

[goatdan]

First of all, I assume you're talking about FFXI, not X. FFXI is certainly not mainstream (it's an online RPG. I mean, come on!), but for this type of game, the userbase is quite large.

Yes, I was... but seriously, if the series is as big as people claim it is, I don't think that Sony would've redesigned the case so that it can't play the game -- Regardless of if it is online or not. To me, it sounds like something SquarEnix might not like, considering that Sony is basically denying users from the ability to purchase their game. But I digress...

Yes, there are PS2 RPGs in the Greatest Hits line (if that's supposed to be a measurement of "mainstream"). FFX, Xenosaga and Dark Cloud come immediately to mind.

Okay, I looked them up just now. Officially, you have:

Baldur's Gate
Dark Cloud
Final Fantasy X
Kingdom Hearts
Xenosaga

For the Xbox, you have:

Baldur's Gate
Star Wars: KOTOR
Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind Game of the Year Edition

All of the Xbox games are American releases.

On top of that, for the Xbox you have two biggies that are out now, Star Wars: KOTOR2 and Fable.

I think that by looking at the games that have made it to greatest hits status, we can see that the consoles are similar in numbers. I'll let you decide what you think has more strength of titles for the US market, but based on licensing alone, I think that is pretty obvious.

For the record...

I don't think J-RPGs are mainstream. Neither are A-RPGs (which is the only reason I jumped on this post). There's a few on each side that have sold well because of licenses and huge marketing pushes.

I'd argue that they sold well because they were good games. Let's see here:

Star Wars: Obi Wan - Not really known for selling good like KOTOR
Final Fantasy XI - Sold so strongly that Sony removed hard drive compatibility with their newest hardware revision

There are other examples, but at the core of all of the above games is pretty solid in my opinion.

And I think the wrong angle is being taken in trying to prove it. You can tell if a genre is "mainstream" or not by how many garbage releases are put into it every year.

What RPGs that you were talked about are considered "garbage releases"? KOTOR that "Won over 40 Game of the Year Awards" (as declared on the box)? Morrowind that sold well and had a sequel released shortly thereafter that also sold well?

And the only reason I'm not defending the PS2 titles here is that we didn't talk about them... but I would defend them in the same way.

For the most part, if a game sucks, people don't buy it regardless of the license. There is another thread talking about Turk Evolution -- the Turok name was still solid when it was released, but now they can barely give the game away. People didn't like it, so it didn't sell well.

Take it a step further (how this thread got derailed so much, I'll never know ). You can tell how healthy a system is by the number of garbage releases put onti it every year. Where does this put the GC?

I don't know... I'd say you can tell how healthy a system is by how many quality releases happen each year. Any company can get garbage out, but that doesn't mean the system is doing well or will do well. It's the games like Fable, Star Wars: KOTOR 2, Halo 2, GTA: SA, MGS3, Metriod Prime 2, etc. that allow you to see just how healthy a system is.

[lendelin]

Good discussion, good arguments, good data.

I wouldn't call RPGs in America a niche. If the Japanese Star Ocean according to recent NPD sales figures (source: GamePro) was number 5, and Fable was number 1, it is beyond a niche market although they won't stay there for long. They are certainly not mainstream either, FPS and traditional sports will beat them in sheer sales figures for sure. They were and will be in the near future much more attarctive for casual gamers.

Even considering the relatively modest percentages of RPGs of all the games released (which genre besides FPSs can compete with sports titles anyway?)they are something in between a niche genre and the hot seeling genres of sports, extreme sports, racers, and FPSs. RPGs became established in the US to such an extent that we get a good number of RPGs from great titles to second and third rate games. They are profitable, and go beyond appeal of a market niche; otherwise we wouldnt have the overcrowded RPG offering for the PS2.

There is one interesting development in the last two-three years: American RPG- developers are much closer to market tastes than Japanese developers. Japnese developers (this goes not only for RPGs) got stuck too much in tarditional genres, in their own successful past, while American developers looked for new directions in all sorts of games to deliver movie-like experiences; additionally, they broke more and more traditional strict separation lines of genres, therefore appealing to more gamers, casual and hardcore and everything in between alike. The American RPG has much more potential to berak into the "mainstream" than the Japanese RPG.

If all the smokescreens settle, there will be one big meaning of the Xbox for game development; MS managed to bridge two horses of a different color: the Japanese dominated console RPG, and the American dominated PC-RPG. With the big commercial success of KOTOR, Fable, and probably the upcoming Jade Empire, they slowly bring these two different genres together....and then there is a potential to gain more ground for RPGs.