New Zelda bonus disc coming for GameCube!!!

[NvrMore]

What the hell, I might as well chime in here..

zmeston, sorry, but if you cry "FANBOY" one more time as a reason to put down those who support X company then I'm either going to die laughing at the irony or explode because of the hypocrisy. No offence, but you're every bit as much a Sony fanboy as anyone else could possibly be/is a fanboy of any other system or company. You constantly enter into topics in which another sys/company/product is gaining or may recieve praise and use it as a springboard to lauch into an array of nit-picking/critisism of said company while pimping Sony's.. anything.

Damn, I don't have a problem with you being wrapped up in Sony and their products and it's even nice that you're so excited about their portable proposals but quit the damn zealous fanboy routine. Sorry, I don't mean to be harsh or rude but so far everytime I read one of your posts on the subject of X company in respect to Sony, and their implied proverbial throne complete with fanboy lip to arse cusioning technology, the only thing I see missing is the inevitable "50ny r0xx0rz N iz 2 pHa7 4 j00 fanb0yz".

With regard to current spate of N bashing though... 800,000, granted it's not great but lets no go dropping 0's for the sake of making something sound better (or worse depending on the angle it's taken from).

Nintendo stopped production.. yup, it's generally a good idea to do so when you have enough stock to cover your expected demand... *waits for N bashers to jump at this point*... *ding* so bearing in mind that nobody knows how hot the production had been running simply stands as a point that the company made a basic and, dare I say, smart business move in decreasing expenditure which wasn't neccessary given they felt they had enough stock to cover forseeable demand which could mean they had either 10 units spare or 100,000,000, in either case short of having a condemning inventory listing it's a groundless point to attack as chances are any N bashers would be eagerly jumping on N for the exact opposite reasons (as they were doing) were N still producing with existing stock.

Third-party publishers dropping out.. yup its not a great thing but if we take a look at prominent example A: Acclaim, then we see a company looking for a scapegoat for their sharehlders given their iminent implosion and what better scapegoat then the sys on which their titles have sold the least copies, all the while hiding the fact that their titles didn't sell well because they were complete and utter goat SHITE, the soft greeny-yellow stinky kind which is indicative of the rotting internals of that which produced it.. I know, I played them, I owned some of them and I gave them away.. and I'm a damn collector I don't give games away, I kept home alone for the SNES for fucks sake.
Eidos.. it's a shame, they were ok, I kind of liked them, but then again I didn't make a big deal because publishers jump ship on systems all the time, they always have, it's a part of the business it's just that certain people use such events as an excuse to get pissy about a sys as though it was an earth shatteringly, butt clenchingly, first time EVAR occurrence.

As for bastardizing classic characters and thus alienating the "hardcore" gamers.. rriiiigggghhhht (sorry, I know that sounded pissy but the point's it's addressing just so.. damn.. dumb). Strange, I think I may be, possibly, perhaps deemable as a "hardcore" gamer (although I don't have my membership card or pen yet) yet I was really quite pleased with N's character transitions thus far, even so much as impressed. And I can say I know a respectable number of said proverbial hardcore gamers and N fans who were equally pleased, even the old bastards who play all the way back to their game and watch sets. In short, general consensus was "mmmm wow! goodness".. but of course my and their certificates of "hardcore-ness" haven't made it through in the mail yet.

Can't knock Nintendo for not providing entertainment, for the gamers there's gaming goodness and for the bashers and bitchers there's anything good or bad.. for fucks sake they even complain when they get given good stuff for free.

On topic though.. new Zelda disk, sweet, I've enjoyed the free OoT/MQ disk and I will have the new one too. It's a great idea and as a fan of the series all I can say as far as freebies go they know what I want and go that little bit further. Spot on.

[sisko]

And the reason Sony probaly makes money on PS2's? Those things are the cheapest POS I have ever played on. Nintendo systems you can drag through hell and back and they STILL work! (maybe they are built TOO well?)

You do have a point here. If Sony for once built a quality hardware product that didn't crap out after the first two or three years on the vast majority of users, they wouldn't have had to constantly replace theirs and Sony wouldn't be anywhere close to the 60 million mark.

[hydr0x]

I will state my gaming reputation on this one statement:

we are witnessing the final days of Nintendo hardware.

your reputation is already gone seriously, you're to narrow-minded, just because GC isn't doing well in the US doesn't mean nintendo will go bankrupt

[NE146]

I really don't give a hoot one way or the other as long if a company is dead or alive, as long as I get the console and as many of it's good games as I can get

[ChuckthePlant]

I think everyone makes excellent points but ignores the long-term view. We have seen the demise and rise of various consoles, companies and games from the very beginning of this industry. The one constant is being unable to guess the next major market direction. A commanding market share for a company does not lead to dominance forever. Nintendo has been in the market for a long time and takes a longer view of things than do fanboys and an servile advertising driven game press. It is beyond a doubt that they are experiencing major problems, but in a mature industry this is not uncommon. If we look to such companies as Chrysler, Apple, or IBM we can see similar rise and falls. Nintendo’s financials and their cash flow planning go a long way to protect them from what could be a temporary market position. So while this discussion is entertaining in an academic and reactive way it should be taken with a grain of salt.

[orrimarrko]

Didn't this turn into a tasty morsel of a topic?

Well, into the fray I go...

I'm not a fanboy of any particular system, as quite frankly, they ALL have their cons.

I unintentionally spread my time over the three current systems (GC, XBOX and PS2) with not much loyalty to any of the three. Obviously, exclusives are purchased for the system that releases them, and for titles that appear on all three - price dictates first, then graphics and control second. That typically puts the PS2 in last place.

Now that I have established my "non-biased" persona, I have to say that I agree, in part, with both of the conflicting views on the Big N's alleged future demise.

Zach knows his shit, and although some of his posts may have a little opinion clouding the issue, he's pretty much correct.

On the other hand, those who have claimed that Nintendo isn't going anywhere soon are also most definitely correct.

So where does that leave us. Some interesting "facts" (coupled with some conjecture):

Nintendo dropped the ball with the N64 - that's a fact. Doesn't matter if you like the system or not (I happen to). The development cost them long term third party support, money and market share. ALL FACTS.

Unfortunately, this carried over to the GameCube. In an attempt to be "different" once again, they chose a poor color for the system, a poor design for the media (3.5"), and NO DVD support. With less third party support for the system (which was carried over from the N64), Nintendo had to rely mostly upon crossover titles and not enough first party software at the release.

SONY garnered way too much of the market share with the PS/One, and did actually make two genius design moves when they released the PS2 - backwards compatability and DVD playback with no additional cost.

This almost solidified the PS2 worldwide. $299 for a system that could play your DVDs, PS games and these new PS2 games?? A steal.

And that's exactly what they did - they stole the market right out from Nintendo, in what practically amounted to a weekend.

Nintendo, trying to save face (at least internally) claimed that they weren't concerned, and that they're market share was this and that...BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. They were shitting their pants. Any attempt to say otherwise is just bullshit.

Now, I will give Nintendo some credit here. They have established themselves with the children's market. No violence (for the most part) has helped them to maintain their hold on this demographic. But, as we all know, the kids market is less than half of the entire console market. They maintain their hold on the handheld market, and probably will for a long time.

The PSP will be great I'm sure, but Gameboy branding is going to be very hard to top. The only good thing for Big N here is, most people will probably own both. I honestly can't see gamers choosing the PSP over the GBA sp permanently. The cost is so low, gamers can afford both.

Back to consoles.

I know that SONY and Nintendo are looking at the next gen of consoles (as they should be), and that Nintendo will have ONE more chance to do things right. They have to offer something better than what SONY does in terms of hardware. They HAVE to make it affordable, and/or compatable with the GC in some way. They MOST definitely have to make it play DVD. AND most importantly, they absolutely have to have a decent sized library of truly innovative and kick ass games at launch.

If they can do all of that, I think they will be around for a while. From everything that I have read, Big N is confident that they will. Let's not forget people - they aren't stupid. They spend lots of money every year on marketing and information gathering. They know the mistakes they've made, and how it's cost them. The question is, what will they do about it.

Personally, I think that they will incorporate all of their lessons learned into the next hardware. I don't know if it will be enough, but I honestly hope so. If not, the fifth Nintendo console will be the last one you see.

Punt...

[SoulBlazer]

orrimarrko made a GREAT post -- once again someone said very nicely what I was trying to say. :P

Thanks for saying some good thoughts.

There's only one thing I disagree with you on -- I don't think the media choice for the GC is bad. What's wrong with it? The storage space is big enough for most games and if not, you just include a second disc, like the PSX used to do. Nintendo said one reason they picked that format was to prevent piracy -- and so far, it's worked (it's amazing how much the PS2 and XBox are pirated! x_x )

Also, Nintendo has a long and deep relationship with Mitsuda (the company that made the format) and their parent company, so I'm sure that's another reason for it.

[Raedon]

I will state my gaming reputation on this one statement:

we are witnessing the final days of Nintendo hardware.

your reputation is already gone seriously, you're to narrow-minded, just because GC isn't doing well in the US doesn't mean nintendo will go bankrupt

Lol, give it 10 years and one more console and portable..

And Japanese companies don't go "bankrupt" that is an american thing.

As for the narrow minded statement.. my eyes are wide open, I think I know more then a little bit about the console industry. I also read up on industry info from Japan, so I'm not just firmly grounded in the US of A on my statement..

[SoulBlazer]

Japanese companies don't go bankrupt? Then what happened to SNK?

[Duncan]

Here's a new thought or two to chew on.

Is it possible we're all getting a little too worked up over hardware? These are game machines, and we shouldn't forget that. I think that, if recent rumors and releases are any indication, Sony may done so already.

Take the upcoming PSX, a seriously upgraded and ultra-priced PS2 variant. This thing is expected to include a progressive-scan DVD player and burner as standard equipment. I've heard it will cost somewhere on the order of $400-$500 when it arrives late this year. Granted, it might be nice to have everything in one place for convenience...

...but then did the LaserActive or CD-I systems ever take off? No, and things like DVD/VCR combos are only going to be popular in the short term as well. People tend to buy one thing at a time for the most part; otherwise, they feel they've been ripped off when half of their entertainment options become obsolete in a couple of years.

With that in mind, let's go back to the GameCube. It is a game system to the fore, which works very much in its favor for people who -- here's a thought -- want to play games. No, it doesn't play DVDs or CDs -- but nearly everyone now has a separate DVD or CD player anyway. So I think Sony's current ownership of the DVD player market is about to become a dead issue, assuming another "must-have" technology doesn't arrive soon.

And though most people have laughed off Nintendo's strong focus on GBA connectivity as an attempt to hide their poor online presence, I think this will be their saving grace for the next couple of years. Remember that a lot of people nowadays know Nintendo mainly through the Game Boy -- and some of them are surprised to find that now (thanks to the godsend Game Boy Player), they don't have to squint at that tiny screen if they want to play games at home.

Consider also these facts: a lot of places have been throwing in the GB Player for free with GameCube purchases, and remember that brand-new GBA games are nearly half the price of any other console's. They're also easier to play and use for a lot of people, being based on a simple cartridge and having only a few buttons to work with. The economics and mechanics simply make good sense. I get the feeling that Sony, in its usual way, will do everything it can to "tech up" the PSP and make it more capable than the GBA -- but if it uses any sort of a disc or has too many easily breakable gewgaws, I can guarantee you that parents (who ultimately drive half of the GBA's sales right now) will not be interested. The GBA's simplicity is part of its appeal, and Sony would be wise not to screw with that formula.

Now, back to online games for a second. Though this has been repeatedly touted -- mostly by game magazines -- as the "next wave" of console gaming, I honestly just don't see it happening. Having worked in the electronics department of a major retail chain for the last five years (and having now seen enough console launches to know what works and what doesn't), I'm pretty sure that online games will continue to be important only in the PC world. And though some people have the time and money to play both PC and console games, most game buyers have already chosen which side they'll stick with for the long term. The console people, for the most part, don't seem to care all that much about going head-to-head with online opponents if it means they'll have to add more hassles to their entertainment system hookup.

Want proof that online console games are going nowhere? Sony's new PS2 Online package (including the PS2 console and Network Adapter for $199) has not moved more than two (that's the number 2) units off my store's shelves since it arrived over a month ago. And our Xbox Live kits have just gone clearance...

Finally, I'll give you this to consider. After learning from Atari's successes and (most of their) failures, Nintendo basically built the modern video game industry singlehandedly. Sega then took over as the market matured, and Sony effectively inherited it when Sega could no longer pay to play. But despite the rises and falls of many a competitor, Nintendo has continued to be a dominant force in the market based mainly on good name recognition and a proven formula. Conversely, one gets the feeling that if it all went terribly pear-shaped for Sony, they'd drop this whole video game "thing" like a rock and cut their losses. They're a gigantic megalith of a company, and that's just what megaliths do. For classic proof of this phenomenon, you might recall that Philips once sold video games a while back...

...and as for Microsoft, I simply point you to the stacks and stacks of unsold Xbox games building up in my store's back room as I write this. End of story.

Duncan

[zmeston]

N/A

[Kevin Listwan]

I have said this in a few other threads so if you have heard please ignore, a few months (sorry I do not remember the issue number) back Business 2.0 magazine ran a very good article on Nintendo's current state and covered many of the topics discussed hear. The mag had a picture of a shark on it. Basically the articles conclusion was that Nintendo IS in trouble but is NOT doomed, the next few years and next console release is crucial depending, which way Nintendo wants to go in the market (i.e. make consoles or become the next Sega).

Also on Nintendo's lack of a DVD play ability, this was done because the Gamecube was designed both physically and technologically to be a video game machine not an "entertainment system" like the PS2 and X Box.

[Digital Database]

That's very cool news, I can't wait for it

[zmeston]

N/A

[Raedon]

Phht.. GC, ps2, Xbox... We all know the Phantom is going to change the lanscape of console gaming...



*pause for effect*


Ahahahahahahahhahahahha

[zmeston]

N/A

[Anonymous]

Not to take sides or anything, but internally everyone at Nintendo regards the N64 as a big mistake for not having gone with CDs. Everyone also regards it as a big mistake that Nintendo did not go with DVD capability with the Gamecube. And there are some that believe that Nintendo is holding back with the Gamecube while they prepare for the Next Generation system. All Hearsay, of course...

[Ed Oscuro]

Also, please point out the many ways in which the GameCube is less "cheap" in its construction than the PS2.

They certainly didn't pay the designers any money, since even the "stylish" black version has that wierd beige rectangle for your controllers. I suppose the cube-watermelon shape makes them cheaper to ship, but that doesn't help me out any. Also have to love how the Japanese get different colors of GameBoy Player in a cool box reflecting the look of the whole unit. Even Europe got a similar package, in fact. Not us!

As Orrimarko hinted at, it's also a great idea to take too many cues from a failed system, like using the same media as the Dreamcast. This doesn't save on packaging or much of anything. The GameBoy Advance connectivity seems to me about as much a selling point as the Dreamcast VMU...especially when I realize I've already been ripped off with the GameBoy Player NOT offering connectivity built in.

As for all this utter CRAP about "Japanese companies have too much pride" or "Japanese companies don't go bankrupt," it doesn't take a genius to sense that there's some stereotyping going on. I recently read that Nintendo had bought back a certain number of shares of stock in order to keep the company's stock price up...right there's a reason to suspect that Nintendo will try quite hard to survive. Japanese companies DO go bankrupt, as is proven without a doubt by the fall of SNK in late 2001.

[YoshiM]

I personally go with the 4 console life rule: if a company puts out 4 consoles, it dies (at least with making consoles at least). Atari: Put out the VCS, 5200, 7800 and Jaguar. DEAD! Sega: put out the SMS, the Genesis, the Saturn, and the Dreamcast. DEAD! The Cube is number four...what will happen next? dun dun DUUUUNNNNN!

(j/k)

One of the issues with the Cube is that it is really hobbled when it comes to exclusive "killer apps". Opening day didn't have many titles that said "buy this system NOW!" except perhaps Star Wars and the hope of future Nintendo classics like Mario, Zelda, and Metroid. It also concerns me when they have other parties making their flagship titles (like Sega working on F-Zero GX and Retro Studios making Metroid Prime). Shouldn't Nintendo's in house best be working on this stuff? On the outside, even though the games are good I would think that makes Nintendo look a bit weak.

Sony has a lot of weight behind them and a gi-mongous following. Stats or no, the PS2 was gobbled up like it was a Thanksgiving turkey. Even in the 50K people metropolis known as Sheboygan where I work there were people LINED UP OUTSIDE OF STORES. That has NEVER happened before for a game system here. NEVER. People know Sony. They want Sony. To think that something like the PSP is NOT going to attract attention is just a foolish thought. Without a doubt, unless Sony flushes its brain, the PSP is going to kick Nintendo hard in the sack. And everyone here knows I ain't a Sony fanboy by any stretch of the imagination so it's not like I'm playing them up.

As for Nintendo's second place in Japan: that's by default due to the fact they are a Japanese company. Xbox could have the best games, bar none, the kind that cause angels to sing from heavens and fish to dance on the surface of the sea but because the hardware is produced by an American company the Japanese aren't interested. Same for the software. Sad but true.

Am I going to say that it's death to the Gamecube? No, but it ain't looking too hot. Dropping a majority of the big guns in a short span of time was a despiration move if I ever saw one and now the retro collection rumor of getting some of the biggest titles of one of THE most recognized game series in the world one can't just say that the big N is doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. Couple that with the heavy push for GBA connectivity games they seem to be scrambling to come up with something to get positive recognition.

And don't get me started with GBA connectivity or you'll get an eye-full of negative verbage on the topic.

[zmeston]

N/A

[zmeston]

N/A

[Jorpho]

Crikey. I hope I didn't start all this. I shall never again speculate about the wisdom of a company's particular moves, because I can hardly guess at how they work.

Nonetheless...

Stats or no, the PS2 was gobbled up like it was a Thanksgiving turkey. Even in the 50K people metropolis known as Sheboygan where I work there were people LINED UP OUTSIDE OF STORES. That has NEVER happened before for a game system here.

It wasn't too long ago that the N64 (with Ocarina of Time) was selling out at stores during the holiday season, and some merchants had to resort to putting up signs in their windows stating as much.
________
I inhale vaporizer reviews

[ChuckthePlant]

[quote="zmeston"]

Don't go getting all voice-of-reasony on us, man. That's no fun!

Okay, let's take a long-term view, as you suggest Nintendo does.

The home videogame industry is about 25 years old. Nintendo has been around for roughly 20 of those, and has released four major game consoles: NES, Super NES, N64, and GameCube. The SNES sold fewer units than the NES; the N64 sold fewer units than the SNES; and the GameCube, if future sales stay consistent with current sales, will sell fewer units than the N64. Nintendo hasn't had a "rise and fall"; it's been ALL fall. It's not "a temporary position"; it's 15 straight years of market-share loss.

You say it's impossible to guess Nintendo's next direction; I say, looking at past and present trends, it's very possible.

-- Z.

Oops, no desire to spoil the fun. Your observations about declining market share over the 10-15 years are correct. I only pause to caution that with a developed and mature market there are many scenarios’ that could change the present landscape. The main problem with Atari, Sega, SNK et al were a result of poor financial planning and not enough preparation for a cyclical industry and the reality of their position with in it. My main point is with very favorable cash flow and sound financials Nintendo is probable better suited to weathering many off years than it’s competitors. I would direct you look at non gaming revenue for Sony for the current year. I would not direct you to Microsoft as they could probably give away the console and games plus an extra five hundred for walking around money, for the next ten years and see little impact on there bottom line. They are truly a special case. Nintendo was founded in 1889 and may have longer view of things than even 25 years. This may be both it bain as well as it boon. For us to try and prognosticate base on current technological and market positions is fraught with the error of unanticipated events but does yield an interesting discussion. Besides I do like Zelda, and look forward to the re-release. Thought I throw a little on topic information into the post (lol)

[zmeston]

N/A

[SoulBlazer]

Is'nt one of the reasons that Nintendo has sold less of each of their consoles because they have more and more compeition in the videogame market?

Still, I see Nintendo as taking a long term aproach as well, and being in a much better position to surive then Sega was a hardware maker. Granted, a lot of the money is coming from the GBA and Pokemon, but they are still doing quite well. Sony may make a lot of money from it's gaming division, but they are a HUGE comp[any, making money from all of their products.

If there is a decline in the gaming industry, as some have said that might happen, Nintendo could survive it, where I think Sony would cut it's losses and pull out of the gaming market.

Zach, I'm curious -- do you see Nintendo as doing anything RIGHT? You're such a negative person on one of the best video gaming companies.