Is the AV Famicom's video quality superior to the NES Toaster's?

[treismac]

I am curious if anyone can verify if the AV Famicom does indeed have superior video quality to the original North American NES. Also, is there an established order amongst all of the different Japanese (Twin Famicom, Titler, etc.) and American versions of the systems in regards to video and other factors such as sound, reliability, or what-have-you?

[FoxNtd]

I've never heard of any differences with video output quality if you're fairly comparing RF with RF, and AV with AV (different models have different capabilities, modifications notwithstanding.)

Sound is superior on (any model) Famicom because there are more sound channels available. Of course this only applies if the channels are actually used. Otherwise, again, I expect both sides to be equal.

As for reliability (and to be more fair, overall design), the model 1 NES is a piece of shit. As for the second model, well, I have a model 2 that doesn't have that "lines" problem with the video output that a bunch of model 2 owners report. So I guess that's the main issue with those; whether it's common or not, I don't know. (Not having AV built-in was stupid.) I've only recently seen a picture of a TV screen showing the lines issue from a bad model 2.

Famicoms aren't perfect but I anticipate how they fail and how often are both very low in quantity. Have you ever heard of someone doing a 60-pin connector swap on an FC? I doubt it. I don't even know if you can, actually.

Oh, the first release of FC had some kind of hardware issue where they had square shaped buttons on the controller, but given how hard it is to deliberately find this model anyway (Nintendo did a recall on these?), I doubt it can really be admitted as an issue since most FC's were revised after that, and are consequently exempt.

My details were specific to first-party NTSC NES consoles, the first-party Famicoms, and Sharp's Twins. I don't deal with pirates or clones so I won't know about those. (I'll assume PAL NES consoles have the same level of quality aside from the 50Hz aspect.)

[ccovell]

Twin Famicoms are superior to AV Famicoms because they still have the microphone on the 2P joypads for the games that use it.

Titlers have superior video to the regular Famicom (different encoder), and also have S-Video and RGB accessible. Plus they still have the usual extra joypad connector and 2P mic.

[Pikkon]

I do like my Av Fami as they take regular nes controllers,I can't stand hardwired controllers.

[theclaw]

Famicom also often has vertical lines similar to NES2.

The benefit Famicom and Twin Famicom both share over AV Famicom, is an eject button. Something no North American system offers. However Twin Famicom still retains hardwired controllers...

[klausien]

I have an AV Famicom and a Toaster NES, and to my eyes, the video is about the same via composite: crystal clear. Not sure if it has RF lines via RF, but I don't believe it does. The issue was fixed before the AV Famicom was released, which is one of the reasons the AV Famicom is more desirable than a Top-Loading NES.

However, the Toaster with the single resistor sound mod has proper sound balance in games that use additional sound channels like Akumajou Densetsu. On the AV Famicom, the sound effects are barely audible over the music. This was not the case with the original Famicom models. I still use it to play Famicom 3D and Disk System games (flash carts do not properly play the extra sound channels of the Disk System on either version of the console), but my AV Famicom generally collects dust at this point.

[theclaw]

Aren't NES to Famicom converters built improperly for the extra sound channels? Typical pirate cost cutting. Pretty sure I've heard something about a mod.

[Ace]

Compared to the two NES models released in North America and the Twin Famicom, I'd rank the AV Famicom second in terms of video quality. It's got good video like the Front-Loader NES, but the picture is darker on the AV Famicom. The video is still better than either the Top-Loader NES or Twin Famicom; both have pretty nasty vertical lines which you can reduce by adding a capacitor to the 2C02.

As far as audio goes, though, Twin Famicom all the way. It doesn't need a modification to get expansion audio, but I suggest you remove a stupidly-placed low-pass filter capacitor as this makes the sound considerably more muffled than any Nintendo-made Famicom. Also, unlike the AV Famicom, expansion audio will not cause the volume level of the 2A03 to drop. I did some comparisons of my Twin Famicom compared to my AV Famicom, and with the VRC6 in Akumajou Densetsu set at the same volume level in my audio samples, the 2A03 is much quieter on the AV Famicom than the Twin Famicom. Also, if you listen to a PSG-only game and a game with expansion audio that has small segments with just PSG, you'll notice the PSG is noticeably quieter than on the Twin Famicom.

This audio balance issue doesn't just affect the AV Famicom. It also affects RF-only Famicoms with motherboard revisions HVC-CPU-GPM-01 and HVC-CPU-GPM-02. This video will show you what I mean: http://nicoviewer.net/sm16346242

It compares the audio out of a variety of different Famicom models and motherboard revisions. Pay attention to the HVC-CPU-GPM RF-only Famicoms and the two AV Famicoms. Listen to how loud the expansion audio is.

However, the Toaster with the single resistor sound mod has proper sound balance in games that use additional sound channels like Akumajou Densetsu.

Are you using a 47Kohm resistor like everyone says to use? If I put a 47Kohm resistor on the Front-Loader NES (well, on any NES, really, Top-Loader included), it makes the 2A03 inaudible. I need to use 95Kohms in order to get the audio balance right. 47Kohms is okay for the PowerPak, but for an actual Akumajou Densetsu cartridge, it won't cut it as the game sounds like it does on the AV Famicom.

[klausien]

Aren't NES to Famicom converters built improperly for the extra sound channels? Typical pirate cost cutting. Pretty sure I've heard something about a mod.

I should have been more clear, but I was talking resistor mod plus flash cartridge. You are correct that the converters don't play the extra channels using actual Famicom cartridges on a Toaster. The mod to do so legitimately is Rube Goldberg material too. This very issue is why I bought an AV Famicom, but I can tell you Akumajou Densetsu is better on a flash cart on the Toaster with resistor mod sound wise.

47Kohms is okay for the PowerPak, but for an actual Akumajou Densetsu cartridge, it won't cut it as the game sounds like it does on the AV Famicom.

I believe the problem is the missing pin connections in the converter. There are mods out there, but they require running wires from the bottom of the NES board where you solder the resistor, to the converter ITSELF. Completely impractical.

[theclaw]

I should have been more clear, but I was talking resistor mod plus flash cartridge. You are correct that the converters don't play the extra channels using actual Famicom cartridges on a Toaster. The mod to do so legitimately is Rube Goldberg material too. This very issue is why I bought an AV Famicom, but I can tell you Akumajou Densetsu is better on a flash cart on the Toaster with resistor mod sound wise.

You have that backwards. I was talking about the opposite. Getting the extra channels from NES cartridges (such as PowerPak), when used on a Famicom.

[klausien]

You have that backwards. I was talking about the opposite. Getting the extra channels from NES cartridges (such as PowerPak), when used on a Famicom.

Doh! I need to read more carefully! Never even considered that because I just use my Famicom for legit Japanese cartridges due to the convenience of the PowerPak+Modded Toaster combo.

[Ace]

I believe the problem is the missing pin connections in the converter. There are mods out there, but they require running wires from the bottom of the NES board where you solder the resistor, to the converter ITSELF. Completely impractical.

I did a direct connection from my converter to my NES (TO PIN 54 AT THE CONVERTER, same as the PowerPak; I hate those mods where you solder directly from the converter to the NES, they're 100% stupid and unnecessary) and put a 47Kohm resistor in the console. The volume balance between the VRC6 and the 2A03 was as bad as on the AV Famicom unless I either put a 75Kohm and 20Kohm resistor in series inside the console to make 95Kohms (which is not a good thing on the PowerPak as its expansion audio is considerably quieter than the real VRC6) or put a 47Kohm and 1Kohm resistor in series inside my converter to make the missing 48Kohms required to make 95Kohms with the 47Kohm resistor already in the NES.

...due to the convenience of the PowerPak+Modded Toaster combo.

Convenient, yes. Accurate... not so much. Don't get me wrong, games without expansion audio are fine as is Akumajou Densetsu (the FPGA-simulated VRC6 is pretty much perfect), but the Famicom Disk System audio is WAY off. It lacks all low-pass filtering, some sounds are completely wrong, and I'm not sure if this affects all games, but on some of them (I've personally seen this in Falsion), the sound pitch is all over the place. Someone should rewrite the Disk System mapper with a more accurate FPGA-simulated 2C33. I would much rather play Famicom Disk System games using either the original disks or FDSLoadr on my modified Twin Famicom AN-500B instead of through a PowerPak (trust me, the real 2C33 sounds a lot better than the PowerPak's FPGA-simulated 2C33).

[Parodius Duh!]

well the best quality overall would be the Famicom Titler due to RGB and Composite output as well as a much better PPU installed. Unfortunately they are incredibly expensive. Twin Famicom would be the best bet for anyone wanting to experience the best of the system.

[Ace]

Agreed. I'm just gonna say this: if I were to own just one variant of the Famicom, it would be the Twin Famicom. It does need some mods due to volume balance issues (2C33 is too loud on some Twin Famicoms, mainly the early AN-500R models, though my particular AN-500B also had louder sound out of the 2C33 as well as a complete lack of low-pass filtering on the 2C33 itself - looks like on the early AN-500R Twin Famicoms, Sharp soldered in two resistors at the wrong place and on my AN-500B, it looks like Sharp used the correct resistor at one spot, but the wrong resistor at another. It depends entirely on the motherboard revision), muffled sound (for some reason, Sharp placed a ceramic capacitor between the audio output and Ground, which makes the sound very muffled) and some rather noticeable vertical lines (soldering a capacitor between pin 22 of the 2C02 and Ground makes the vertical lines either disappear or make them less apparent).

[klausien]

Convenient, yes. Accurate... not so much. Don't get me wrong, games without expansion audio are fine as is Akumajou Densetsu (the FPGA-simulated VRC6 is pretty much perfect), but the Famicom Disk System audio is WAY off.

Oh, I agree completely. I use my FDS+AV Famicom for FDS games. I tried the original Zelda on the PowerPak and immediate noticed the difference. For Akumajou Densetsu it's better on my configuration however. I'd rather play legitimate carts in general, but I just love the fact that I don't have to put wear and tear on my cart slot if I use the PowerPak.

[Ace]

Oh, I agree completely. I use my FDS+AV Famicom for FDS games.

Twin Famicom for me. The audio out of the 2C33 is too loud on the AV Famicom, but on the Twin Famicom (except the early ones like mine, though mine is better than some of the early AN-500R Twin Famicoms as those have VERY loud audio out of the 2C33 and overall have distorted sound) and any Famicom with motherboard revision HVC-CPU-08 or older, Famicom Disk System games sound fine. I suggest you use a different console for anything with extra audio. That's what I do: I use my Twin Famicom primarily for Famicom Disk System games and Akumajou Densetsu, and the AV Famicom takes care of the rest.

I'd rather play legitimate carts in general, but I just love the fact that I don't have to put wear and tear on my cart slot if I use the PowerPak.

The PowerPak is very convenient for me as when I go visit friends who have an NES, I used to lug around a whole bunch of NES cartridges with me. Now, with the PowerPak, I don't have to that anymore, BUT, there is one game I own that will not work on it: Salamander. There's no VRC3 mapper file yet, from what I've seen, and I would much rather play Salamander than Life Force, which was simplified to work with UNROM (static title screen, different status bar, 2 Options instead of 3, only one ending that's just a static Konami logo).