Take me, for instance. I exclusively collect for Sega along with my vintage electronics collection. However, I would be an idiot to not maximize my profits on Nintendo merchandise so not only can I pay my bills, I can buy more items for my personal collection. I would be an idiot to turn down free, easy money. I would also be an idiot to not purchase any non-gaming item I know is worth money simply out of some "moral" pretext of selling an item for many more times is "wrong".
We live in a capitalist society. Prices are determined by the free will of individuals. Items are worth what people are willing to pay at the time of transaction. There's no "tricking" people into agreeing to "pricing theories". People pay the amounts they're willing to pay to have the item period. If you really want something, you overpay for it. If you want to maximize profits, you target clientele that is willing to overpay. It's simple economics.
You might have an ethical issue with someone like myself but it's very wrong to only assume that we're representation ourselves as "collectors" and we aren't actually collectors. You might have a problem with me using my collector knowledge to support myself and my gaming habit but it doesn't exclude me from being a collector. It's akin to insider information. Same goes for a guy like BeaglePuss and guys like him. How can anyone possibly be upset at him? He makes people happy by selling them rare prototypes, he's happy by making lucrative amounts of cash, and everyone wins. Everyone is happy ... but yourself and those that share your opinion. It's a bit selfish imo but everyone is entitled to their own opinions and that's the beauty of the world we live in.
Everyone doesn't win and you are hurting the vast majority of the collecting community. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but when I started collecting over 20 years ago, nobody was flipping games and nobody was trying to maximize their profit in the collecting community. Even five years ago, there was still a huge group of collectors who did it for the love of collecting and wanted to help other collectors find cool items at the lowest price possible. In fact, I would venture that this profiteering trend has been within the past couple of years, probably right around the time grading popped up and it seems to be driven by a small group of collectors who believe that only their personal wealth and collection matters and that the community is only here to provide them with information and tips and possibly a customer base. I don't buy into that.
On the occasions where I end up with extra copies of a game or consoles, I either sell them at cost or in many cases just charge exact postage or if they're local, give the items away. If people want to profiteer off of other collectors, that's their choice, but I'm not going to congratulate them for it or celebrate their ingenuity or even consider them to be collectors. It's not positive for other collectors because it results in higher prices and an inability of collectors to find items they may want at a reasonable price.
We can argue about this forever, but I am really tired of the now regular threads in the "What's It Worth" forum here and elsewhere with people saying things like "oh, I met this former programmer from X game company and I told him I was a collector and he gave me all these amazing games for almost nothing, so how much can I sell everthing for?". Do you really think the programmer gave you that stuff so you could immediately turn around and sell it or was he under the impression based on your conduct and claims that as a collector you cherished his items and intended to preserve them? To me that's a form of fraud and misrepresentation. It's one thing to go to thrifts or garage sales or swap meets where nobody cares if you're a collector or not and pricing has nothing to do with your status. It's a whole other thing to use your collector credentials to get access to items at minimal or no cost all the while knowing you are just going to use them for financial gain.
Listen to this power
"If you're a friend of mine and you scam someone, you're going on this list.
If you scam someone that I hate, you're going on this list.
If you do something deceitful but then apologize, you're going on this list.
If you've scammed people on other boards, you're going on this list."
Oh yes spoken like a true hall monitor, how many times did your brother pin you up against the lockers and pull your pants down so you could feel his manhood? How many prostate orgasms did you have, I bet that Flintstones wasn't even sealed i bet you left a warm cream pie in there and sealed it back up before you shipped it you sick fuck. You and your brother should be ashamed of what you have done to this community neither one of you are collectors. You saw this world as a place to make money for your home remodels, once you're finished sucking this world dry of everything you can like a vampire you will be gone into the night but until then more home remodels await.
As for giving back stuff at cost (especially when you have failed to give specific examples), let's talk about our proto collecting:
- Matt and I own well over 100 protos at this point. We have profited off of exactly 3 of them currently (Hoppin' Mad Kitty's Catch, and Beastball). For those who did not wish to purchased copies of the game, I released the ROM to the public so that they can still enjoy it.
- For giving back, let's talk actual examples of what we've done. Again, misinformation is a sin, so feel free to double check these facts anywhere else on the web:
Arcadia VI (NES): Purchased by Matt and I for $1,500. Released for free to everyone. You're welcome
Swamp Thing (Genesis): Purchased by Matt and I for around $800 (I think slightly more), released free to the public. again, you're welcome.
Dragon's Lair (Genesis): Purchased by Matt and I for $800, released to the public for free. Yet again, you're welcome.
USA Bowling (NES): Purchased by Matt and I for $500, released to the public for free. Yup, you're welcome.
You ever release anything to the community at the cost of thousands to yourself just because you want them to enjoy something with you? Seriously, one example would be super cool. I love protos, I love preservation, and I've never flipped them for a profit.
I think that is it for unreleased stuff that we released completely for free to anyone to dl, though we've dumped a ton of other released games as well. Looks like we paid about $3,600 for all of those. Anyone want to pay $750 shipped for the lot? No one? It looks as though we lost thousands in our "investment" for releasing these games. Doh!
As for our devilish price checks! Let's point to a recent one:
Bought a shit ton of awesome Vectrex stuff, asked about the price of two items, sold only one of the two, and kept all the rest. You caught us, dirty, lying, resellers! Oh, I forgot to mention. We also sold an item that we weren't looking to sell (the Vectrex Button) to a mod here. At what cost? Gasp! His initial offer without negotiating. How dare we!
Well, that's it for Matt's ONE AND ONLY thread started in What's it worth since 2009, so I guess you must mean me. Yup, I did have a thread 8 months ago that had something like that:
Again, bought a massive lot and was looking for the value of a small handful of items. I did eventually sell off all my CD-i dev stuff...
Well over a year after I bought it. You see, sometimes you just run out of room and you end up selling items for different priorities.
Now, since I posted some examples instead of cryptic and vague posts, let me ask you some follow ups:
Where are these "Regular" threads in What's it Worth? Granted, I do indeed start a thread there once a year (check the math if you'd like), but I'd love to know what you see as regular.
Where is it that I used my street cred and massive e-peen to "get access to items at minimal or no cost all the while knowing you are just going to use them for financial gain."? Matt and I are guilty of buying a single lot of sealed games with the intentions of immediately reselling many of them, but we paid a very fair price. Don't believe us? Ask the seller. His info is in one of the many threads. He got a very nice chunk of change for games that he legitimately got for free.
I've given away doubles of games for free, even unique pieces. Rather than just say that and leave it, I can toss a couple off the top of my head out there:
Gave Qixmaster a prototype of Bad News Baseball free of charge
Gave Johnny a prototype of Toystory on the Genesis free of charge
Gave i2a2n2 a Dinosaur Planet Media binder free of charge
Gave someone a Cadillac and Dinosaurs Sega CD proto for free (can't remember who it was to be honest)
And that's just dev gear. You can hold a vendetta because the internet is serious business and all, but look at our feedback here or anywhere else. We pay top dollar for prototypes, more than almost anyone else is willing to pay. You can see this first hand in open EBay auctions that we've won. Ask anyone who has feedback with us if they felt we ever low balled, under payed, or were deceitful in any way. You won't find any. Sure, you have people that will attempt to troll us, but it's almost always people that I ended up exposing as a thief on NintendoAge.
As for not being a collector, that's silly. You don't have to respect my collection, or me, but you look foolish saying stuff like that.
Telling someone an item is your holy grail and you just have to have it for your collection. Then asking them if they would you consider less etc all because you want to flip it and sell it right away is wrong. There was some of that over on Atariage by a well know reseller and that makes me sick as well. If someone here did that then let us hear about it. You make claims and then back it with sweeping general terms assuming much.
Prices have gone up in 20 years sorry. Not every collector is a museum who keeps every single item they run across till the end of time. Sometimes people switch gears or sell items in order to buy others. What would happen if an item goes down in value after 8-10 years. By your logic collectors should show their loyalty as a fellow collectors and pay what the first collector paid for it, right? No, because your rules only suit you as a buyer. You never sell anything so you say. If everyone else in the entire world would stop being so money hungry you can buy every game for cheap. You have a very egocentric point of view.
You have been collecting for 20+ years and never sell anything.... Seriously, how many more cheap games can you need? I would think at this point, that you would be like most other 20+ year collectors and have a major storage problem at this point.
Did you pay the owner fair market value for those items or tell them you were planning on selling most of it for a large profit?
Weren't you also the guy who got a bunch of prototype and demo CD-i stuff from a former Philips employee and sold all of it within a month or two of getting it? Again, did you pay the guy fair market value or just a minimal amount which he was ok with because you told him you were a collector?
Do you need more examples or are you good?
I already addressed both of those. To reiterate:
- Matt has posted one thread in What's it Worth since 2009. After purchasing a massive lot of Vectrex items, he asked about 2, sold one, then gave a mod here a deal for an item he was interested in for his asking price. Kept everything else.
- Kept the CD-i stuff for months, paid his asking price, sold it months later because priorities changed. Most was sold at open auction starting at .99. Priorities change, and space is a premium.
You're right, prices do go up. They also go down. Prices increasing several hundred percent in a couple of years is not natural or normal appreciation. It's a sign that people are manipulating the market.
It's really not about my personal collection. I have completed most of my collecting goals long ago and I have more games than any person could ever play in a lifetime. That doesn't change the fact that I believe that this latest round of speculation and manipulation is unhealthy for all collectors. I have many collector friends who feel extremely frustrated with the current state of the hobby and frankly, I'm just echoing a lot of the sentiment I have heard over the past few years of attending collector meetings and conventions. Maybe you want our hobby to become just like comics or baseball cards in the 1980s, but personally, I like the more traditional way the hobby has been conducted. There was a time not so long ago that people were looking out for each other, selling things on forums at minimal mark-up or trading them rather than Ebaying in hopes of the big profit and frankly, collectors would go out of their way looking for things they want for their own collection or that they know fellow collectors need rather than looking for the most valuable things to flip. So yes, perhaps I am old fashioned, but I'm guessing I'm not alone in my negative feelings about how things are moving.
If someone made a few bucks doing this I don't have a problem if he didn't lie to get them. The prices he was selling this stuff for seemed very reasonable to me. I'm sure that doesn't matter to you because he did profit in some way. If that is your case then you are aren't being reasonable. I'm sure he did cut people good deals and helped out other collectors who helped him out in the past.
Bottom line - The games sat for all this time and no one else asked him or THEY would have the discs. Where are these TRUE collectors?
Last edited by Buyatari; 04-27-2012 at 12:56 PM.
Each one of the price check threads Mark linked to have post from you citing bullshit low prices with no source of reference, much like you have in this thread.
I dont understand how anyone can even begin to bitch about the twins selling/Collecting habits. They have given back more than any other proto collectors out there and we would not be playing a whole bunch of rare and forgotten games if it wasnt for them! So they purchase a few rare items and resell it and make a profit. BIG DEAL, this happens everyday. If your so pissed about this then you might as well go bitch at your mechanic too, Im sure hes made a killing off of everyone in your community.
Last edited by Parodius Duh!; 04-27-2012 at 01:23 PM.
My Feedback thread: http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144938
As for the dozens and dozens, how about 2 more in the last, I don't know, 2 years. That should be easy enough with "dozens and dozens" right?
Edit: Of course, I mean involving Matt or myself. Hell, how about even Adam or Jason since they're clearly villains as well.
CD-i wasn't my bag, but it was cool to meet with the former VP of Philips. Both were purchased locally on Craigslist. I know, I know, Craigslist is only know by a specific, elite circle of collectors who hang out on this very forum, so we had an unfair advantage, but we did indeed still pay their asking price.
As for "priorities change so quickly and regularly", please link to one (and I mean singular) lots aside the ones that I just mentioned that we purchased and flipped without keeping all/vast majority of the items.
Also, you never answered my question about the last time you spent thousands (with examples) of dollars and immediately gave it to this (or any) community to enjoy.
Last edited by mrmark0673; 04-27-2012 at 01:18 PM.
Oh and to the rest of you watch out, we now have the The Brothers McMullen tag team in this thread. The epic duo is here to lay down there wrath of convincing the gaming community there actually collectors.
Your argument is pointless. So every print of famous artworks must be illegal in your eyes too, hmm? Is a reproduction Fiberglass Shelby Cobra illegal to you?
Last edited by Parodius Duh!; 04-27-2012 at 01:53 PM.
My Feedback thread: http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144938
One of my first jobs in television was handling litigation on behalf of television producers who were being sued by artists and other rights holders for using their work allegedly without permission. It gets expensive to settle those claims and you would be surprised at how many shady print companies there are out there selling poster prints of artwork they have no right to sell or rent as television set decoration.
Last edited by Bojay1997; 04-27-2012 at 02:13 PM.
It's interesting, I went back to the CD-i thread with Zelda's Adventure and I estimated over $100 based on an actual previous Ebay sale while you thought the estimate of $300-$500 was more accurate since the retail version always sells for over $300 despite the fact that you had nothing to back that up. You then only ended up getting $200 for this allegedly rarer version. So, what happened? Is it possible you were just flat out wrong about the value and were using the same fuzzy logic that results in estimates of $27K for a NWC Gold when the highest previous sale was $17K?
On the Vectrex imager, you were positive yours would sell for as much or more than the one that sold the week before on Ebay. As we both know, it clearly didn't. So again, do you really have a solid handle on pricing when your two major recent public sales have fallen well below your estimates?
Thank you Bojay for your continued pursuit to expose the brothers mcmullen.