Japanese gamers and western games...

[G-Boobie]

I agree that Bayonetta is one of the finest games of this generation, the gameplay has an incredible layer of depth that only a Japanese developer can bring to the table. However, there are a lot of shit Japanese games around these days, a lot more than in the past.
Western games do tend to be far more focused on the story and visuals than the actual gameplay, but there are some exceptions.

I'd actually disagree with the idea that western games are focused more on visuals and story than gameplay. Even the biggest, baddest scapegoat of them all, Call of Duty, requires a considerable level of skill and a lot of game knowledge to excel online. I'll happily admit that the single player stuff is more less disposable, but that isn't the focus of the game: the multiplayer is. The same is true for most first and third person shooters, real time strategy games, and sports titles. Quality varies, like any other genre.

I'm curious to know what stupid, easy western games people are talking about. I'm sure I'll hear a chorus of, "SKYRIM!"; that game is plenty easy, but the point of that game is something other than mastery of mechanics. It's an exploration game more than anything. And I liked it just fine. On the other hand, we have titles like The Witcher 2, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., FarCry 2, Metro 2033, The Void, GTA, and Starcraft that can be extremely challenging single player western-developed games, and I loved those too. You, and Chilimac the Lamer Namer, should try them.

Games are much easier than they were back in the 16-bit days, no doubt about it. From a personal perspective, I do miss that sense of achievement when finishing a game, the feeling of overcoming a challenge and honing my skills to reach a deeper level. A lot of modern games don't have that depth to the gameplay, but that's because the industry has changed and gaming is a very commercial form of entertainment these days. They have to pander to the mainstream to survive.

I'd argue that games are easier in this day and age because A) we're a lot farther from gaming's arcade roots than we were in the 16-bit days, and the point of gaming has evolved past its high score chasing, quarter stealing roots, and B) we're better at making games now. No one could have made Super Meat Boy in the 16-bit era (an exceptionally difficult western game, if anyone is keeping score), because the level design in that game is astounding compared to most 16-bit 2D platformers. It's intricate in ways that only Nintendo was doing back in the nineties.

While we're at it, despite their intricacy and craft, the Mario games from the 8 and 16-bit era are pretty easy. I beat Mario 3 and Mario World on the very first day I owned them. Those are not difficult games. On the other hand, Lost Levels took me a month of being very angry to beat, and it's universally reviled (and rightly so).

I think it's insane to quantify the quality of a video game based on it's difficulty. I love Cave shooters, and those are brutally difficult, but I also love the Mario games, Little Big Planet, Skyrim, Deus Ex, every horror game ever made, etc. etc. etc. If you enjoy a hard game, great! That doesn't mean it's better than any given easy one. And if you want a challenge, there are games out there that will give you one: plenty of them in fact. As a bonus, they're often very pretty to look at, too. Witcher 2, I'm looking at YOU.

And now: the Original Point!

From what I've read and heard, Japanese gamers like some western games just fine, but the Vita launch line up was pretty much trash. Uncharted is a 'meh' entry in the series, Ridge Racer Vita is an insulting nightmare, Ultimate Marvel 3 is considered kusoge in Japan and very few players like it or take it seriously, Little Deviants is trash all the way, the golf game did pretty well, but it's yet another hot shots golf game, BlazBlue is a port of a game that most of the people who play it already own on consoles... The machine itself is expensive, you need an additional (also expensive!) memory unit to play some games, and Japanese owners have a huge library of PSP games they can download, too.

Consider also that the 3DS now has Monster Hunter and probably Dragon Quest at some point, whereas the Vita does not. Do you see Monster Hunter or Dragon Quest on there? Nope! That's probably another pair of reasons why it sold badly.

I spend enough of my day not being a simpleton to let some false sense of refinement or whatever it is that is driving your nonsense to worry whether a HOBBY stimulates my mind....

Welcome to Lamer-dom!

[duffmanth]

Western games have rarely been popular in Japan, as where Japanese games having always been popular over here, but I think their popularity is waning? That's why Microsoft has never done well in Japan and probably never will? The big Japanese publishers like Capcom, Konami, Squaresoft, and others that once ruled the industry seem to be less relevant with each passing year in the west at least. It seems like they're catering more to their home country, while western publishers and developers are doing the same here.

[Leo_A]

Western games have rarely been popular in Japan, as where Japanese games having always been popular over here, but I think their popularity is waning? That's why Microsoft has never done well in Japan and probably never will? The big Japanese publishers like Capcom, Konami, Squaresoft, and others that once ruled the industry seem to be less relevant with each passing year in the west at least. It seems like they're catering more to their home country, while western publishers and developers are doing the same here.

Microsoft has heavy support from Japanese publishers and many games traditionally associated with Japan have been 360 exclusives this generation. They're not ignoring the 360 due to the want of Japanese developed software to play on it.

And the big Japanese publishers are struggling even more so back home. That's one reason why you're seeing companies like Capcom increasingly trying to cater to Western audiences. The Resident Evil series is a prime example.

[theclaw]

Yeah this isn't a matter of Western vs Japanese. Their attempts to emulate our design stereotypes aren't any better.

IMO I don't like it when too much graphics "realism" is applied to clearly fake gameplay. If you aren't going to make a simulation, don't create the graphical pretext of one.

Sort of an uncanny valley effect. Hurts the immersion to find out how many hits enemies take in realistic looking games, only to show little if any sign of apparent wounds an actual person would. Even zombies or similar can be close enough to human looking. Resident Evil 4 and 5 suffer from this.

[Tupin]

Yeah, the only thing worse than a bad Western game is a Japanese one that tries too hard to be Western.

I agree with the graphical simulation point. It's so weird seeing realistic characters taking clips full of bullets.

[Griking]

Western games have rarely been popular in Japan, as where Japanese games having always been popular over here, but I think their popularity is waning? That's why Microsoft has never done well in Japan and probably never will?

Personally I believe that Microsoft never did well in Japan because the Japanese people are loyal to a fault to their own Japanese companies and consoles.

[TonyTheTiger]

I agree with the graphical simulation point. It's so weird seeing realistic characters taking clips full of bullets.

You must really hate Arnold movies.

[Tupin]

You must really hate Arnold movies.

Well, I at least see humor in them. Just like whenever Call of Duty throws strawberry jam in my face whenever I get hit. Seriously, auto-regeneration makes sense when you're playing a futuristic space marine, but in a game set in present day, it just makes me laugh.

[theclaw]

They should make regeneration, auto aim, and all, into plot points. At least TRY to show some kind of reason for their presence from an in game universe perspective.

[Gameguy]

They should make regeneration, auto aim, and all, into plot points. At least TRY to show some kind of reason for their presence from an in game universe perspective.

Just have them explain that the characters are either vampires or T-1000 robots from the future. That should take care of most of the problems.

[BetaWolf47]

Here are the facts pertaining to Skyrim: The "game" does not challenge your body, nor your mind.

How the fuck is a game supposed to challenge your body? If you find it hard to press and depress a key, button, or trigger, you probably aren't strong enough to even breath.

Also, Eastern gamers love Western games. Are you guys high or something? Look at Korea and Starcraft.

[RP2A03]

How the fuck is a game supposed to challenge your body?

I guess he plays Wii Fit.



Oh, wait, he is a real gamer that only plays real games; so I suppose he is talking about Dance Aerobics and other games that use the NES Power Pad.

[NayusDante]

If you define a game as requiring the player to make meaningful decisions, Japan isn't really into "games" as much as they used to be. I'm reminded of Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451, where he described a form of television entertainment in which you the "player" responded to the characters in the program. The only choice you had was to play along with wherever it went, and your decisions had no meaningful effect on the story, but it was all set up to appear as though you did. Basically, Bradbury predicted the JRPG. Looking at FFXIII again, there was usually one specific battle plan that worked for each boss battle. You just needed to conform to it, and you were rewarded with the next cutscene.

Western culture is more about non-conformity, which from what I understand is a strong contrast to Japanese culture. Western shooters let you move wherever you want and take control of the battlefield, but Japanese SHMUPS are about avoiding the bullets and finding the right pattern to follow. Both genres are about shooting things, but the play philosophies are completely different.

[chilimac]

Western culture is more about non-conformity, which from what I understand is a strong contrast to Japanese culture. Western shooters let you move wherever you want and take control of the battlefield, but Japanese SHMUPS are about avoiding the bullets and finding the right pattern to follow. Both genres are about shooting things, but the play philosophies are completely different.

I believe the western shooter design philosophy has more to do with their lack of creativity than of a desire for control, and their lack of ability to appreciate good game design. Western developers lack the intelligence to compete with the Japanese on a gameplay design level, and they know this because, back in the 80's when graphics were still primitive and gameplay was king, the Japanese kicked their asses.

So instead of fighting a battle they were certain to lose, western developers chose to focus on graphics and used them to create simulations. Sports sims, flight sims, car sims, fighting sims, life sims, war sims, etc.

The reason they chose this route is because a simulation doesn't require much creativity or talent to make. You just need the ability to copy a real-life activity into video game form. It's the equivalent of a child who has no artistic ability placing a piece of paper over a drawing, tracing it to copy the image, and then taking credit for having drawn it. It's lazy and it's a sham. Lucky for them, they'll continue to get away with it, because most western gamers also lack the intelligence to recognize and appreciate superior game design.

[TonyTheTiger]

I believe the western shooter design philosophy has more to do with their lack of creativity than of a desire for control, and their lack of ability to appreciate good game design. Western developers lack the intelligence to compete with the Japanese on a gameplay design level, and they know this because, back in the 80's when graphics were still primitive and gameplay was king, the Japanese kicked their asses.

You say this as if gaming in the 80s and 90s wasn't dominated by running forward and shooting.

[chilimac]

You say this as if gaming in the 80s and 90s wasn't dominated by running forward and shooting.

There was a bit more to it than that. Back then there was a little thing called "level design", enemies and obstacles placed strategically in a level so that the player was required to develop some skill in order to make progress in the game.

Running forward and shooting is the western design philosophy. Dead Space, for example.

[TonyTheTiger]

Most "level design" in old games was based on making you die first before you realized what you needed to do in order to pass an obstacle. The disappearing blocks over lava in Heat Man's level in Mega Man 2? Hardly about skill the first time you face it. As much as I love games like Mega Man, Contra, Ninja Gaiden, and Castlevania it really was an exercise in repetition. And that was kind of necessary at the time. The games are all about 20 minutes long otherwise.

[Leo_A]

Western developers lack the intelligence to compete with the Japanese on a gameplay design level, and they know this because, back in the 80's when graphics were still primitive and gameplay was king, the Japanese kicked their asses.

I thought the days of gamers thinking that Japan was the promised land was over. But I guess there are a few remnants left that face themselves towards Tokyo a few times a day wishing they were over there in videogame Heaven.

[chilimac]

Most "level design" in old games was based on making you die first before you realized what you needed to do in order to pass an obstacle. The disappearing blocks over lava in Heat Man's level in Mega Man 2? Hardly about skill the first time you face it. As much as I love games like Mega Man, Contra, Ninja Gaiden, and Castlevania it really was an exercise in repetition. And that was kind of necessary at the time. The games are all about 20 minutes long otherwise.

Those disappearing blocks in Mega Man 2 present a test of hand-eye coordination and pattern recognition. You remove those kinds of tests and video games will no longer be games.

And that's exactly what western developers want. They want video games to transform into interactive movies and TV toys, because then they won't have to worry about Japan kicking their asses again.

[TonyTheTiger]

Those disappearing blocks in Mega Man 2 present a test of hand-eye coordination and pattern recognition.

Pattern recognition? There's no pattern so to speak. Sometimes those disappearing blocks appear right above your head. If you don't know to jump before it appears you're going to fall. Unless you consider precognition a factor in hand-eye coordination, there's not a whole lot to it other than memorization. And the original Mega Man is even worse. At one point in Wily's castle you're jumping along moving platforms in a corridor of spikes. Those platforms can sometimes lift you right into the spikes above you without the other platforms close enough to jump to. Again, as much as I love the games, sometimes they just make you screw up before you can figure out how to win.

And let's not forget about the birds in Ninja Gaiden which will swoop in and knock you into a hole solely because you didn't know it was there, the solution being to simply attack during the jump or pause for a second before moving forward. Castlevania can sometimes do the same. That's not a matter of hand-eye coordination. That's "fail first and then compensate." Hand-eye coordination is being able to perform a task you've been sufficiently informed needs to be done. It's not a test of hand-eye coordination to blindfold a baseball player and tell him to hit the ball.

[theclaw]

I thought the days of gamers thinking that Japan was the promised land was over. But I guess there are a few remnants left that face themselves towards Tokyo a few times a day wishing they were over there in videogame Heaven.

More or less. There's people around the industry leftover with basic knowledge of old styles. They have to wait around for corporate suits and all to let them loose. Focus tested games pay the bills!

[chilimac]

I suggest you play Bayonetta, Vanquish, Bangai-O HD, After Burner Climax, Mushihimesama Futari and Deathsmiles for examples of Japan's vast superiority of game design. Those are recent games and they destroy anything that has ever come out of the west.

But of course you likely won't see it that way, because you're brain isn't as large as mine or theirs. For people like you there is Dead Space... between the ears.

[Tupin]

If Japanese games aren't about walking down a corridor and fighting, what is Final Fantasy XIII?

Also, if we loved realism more than Japan, WE would have made Densha de Go.

[kedawa]

How about comparing apples to apples.
Jeff Minter's shooters make that bullet hell nonsense look like preschool.

[The 1 2 P]

If Japanese games aren't about walking down a corridor and fighting, what is Final Fantasy XIII?

Also, if we loved realism more than Japan, WE would have made Densha de Go.

You're actually trying to talk common sense to someone who has none. You'd have a better chance at winning the mega millions jackpot.