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Thread: Volition's Jameson Durall says banning pre-owned games is "fantastic" [Escapist]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    These developers need to grow the balls to admit the real problem here. It's not "used game sales"; it's GameStop. GameStop has a monopoly, and they have the developers bending over getting reamed. They've completely manipulated the system to make greater profits on used sales than new, which is hurting the developers and consumers alike. If they focused on selling new games as they should, game developers wouldn't care about the used sales at independent stores, thrifts, pawns, between friends, etc. I hate to turn this into another anti-GameStop discussion, but they're seriously at the root of this.
    If they believe Gamestop's used sales are hurting them, what's going to stop them from blaming brick n' mortal stores like Digital Press?
    If they believe Digital Press's used sales are hurting them, what's going to stop them from blaming ad sites like Craigslist?
    If they believe Craiglist ads are hurting them, what's going to stop them from blaming Game forums and trade sites like here?
    If they believe Gaming forums are hurting them, what's going to stop them from blaming every gamer that trades, borrows, sells, and every method that doesn't involve buying new games?

    When you put Gamestop on trial for used game sales, you put all of us on trial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    My point is simply that it's clear as day that when developers/publishers complain about "used game sales", as they're apt to do in recent years, what they're really complaining about is GameStop. And personally, I have a little more sympathy for the people who create the games I love than the corporate bigwigs at GameStop, so I'd rather see a more fair relationship between them than to simply tell the developers to suck it up.
    So, you tell one snake to stuff it down his throat while charmed by the other snake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    I don't really care if someone thinks that's fine or not. My point is simply that it's clear as day that when developers/publishers complain about "used game sales", as they're apt to do in recent years, what they're really complaining about is GameStop.
    The only publishers actively complaining are the mega-pubs: EA, Ubi, Sony, etc. If this was anything other than a pretend problem, everyone would be on board, but others see the value in GameStop. And if EA and crew have a problem, then stop giving GS exclusives, but they don't.

    And personally, I have a little more sympathy for the people who create the games I love than the corporate bigwigs at GameStop, so I'd rather see a more fair relationship between them than to simply tell the developers to suck it up.
    You'd rather support the corporate bigwigs at the major publishers then, because that's where the profits of these supposed anti-used policies are going, not to the devs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    There's nothing wrong with free enterprise until a company becomes a monopoly, and GameStop is darn near close to one. They're basically the only chain brick and mortar video game store in town.
    There are anti-trust and collusion laws in place for a reason. GameStop doesn't come close to triggering them as far as I'm aware. Now we can argue whether or not the laws in place appropriately deal with what they're designed to deal with (certainly a valid issue far beyond the scope of a mere game store) but that goes back to hating the game rather than the player. If you think GameStop is a monopoly or close to one and, as a result, is bad for the public, then focus the energy on fighting the institutions that allow that negative entity to exist (or at least perpetuate it's "evils") in the first place rather than the entity itself, which is merely playing by the rules it is presented with. If you're convinced GameStop is bad then at least identify it as a mere symptom of a greater issue, whatever you think that may be. While I may not necessarily agree, the argument will at least be aiming at a more appropriate target.
    Last edited by TonyTheTiger; 02-22-2012 at 01:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    There's nothing wrong with free enterprise until a company becomes a monopoly, and GameStop is darn near close to one. They're basically the only chain brick and mortar video game store in town.
    What difference is it if one retailer dominates brick and mortal videogame stores or if it's a dozen different chains of comparable size? I don't see the significance or the relevance to the topic at hand.
    Last edited by Leo_A; 02-22-2012 at 10:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goatdan View Post
    If *any* company *ever* does this, I won't buy that console. Sorry. Stuff like Steam and the App store, at least there is some sort of guarantee that those games will transfer in the future.
    Unless it's a fucking evil company that uses activation software like TAGES and SecuROM, in which case Steam will do shit about it and tell you to complain to the publisher, not them.
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    I'm getting tired of seeing the industry taking these steps in the wrong direction.

    He thinks $60 is low? What is the average budget of a AAA game? Hollywood films are often in the hundreds of millions, and they charge $10-30 per consumer. A music album averages to $15. A new paperback is around $12. Clearly, video games are too much of a value to consumers and they need to make the jump to $80.

    All of the stupid anti-consumer moves we've seen have been to continue profiting at the $60 price point, but they don't solve the root issue. They have it stuck in their heads that they have to make these cinematic behemoths with huge budgets, then play the market to defend the process. For a single consumer-entertainment work, the sweet spot seems to be between $10 and $30. If they lowered budgets a little and met the $30 price point, the sales increase might be enough to reduce the "pain" of used sales. Profit per unit might go down, but gross profits would increase.

    The "race to the bottom" we're seeing on mobile isn't the answer, but there is definitely something to be learned from those themes of lower prices and lower budgets.

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    Why will consumers buy a potentially ragged used copy of my product for only $5 less than a full copy?

    Why would consumers want to sell my brand new product that they just bought within the past two weeks? And sell it for merely pennies on the dollar?

    I never see publishers or developers wringing their hands and gnashing their teeth over these things. It's always the same dog and pony show about how mean ol' consumers are keeping them from turning the big profits their game really deserves. Not that it was a shitty game with an overblown budget and you pressed about twice the disks as you actually had ordered. Oh no, not that.

    What I always find funny is the compassion shown by gamers towards some of these very same people. Come on... game companies are a capitalist venture, not some collective of altruistic artists! With very few exceptions, games are designed from the ground up for the highest profit margin possible! Why be apologists for their fuck ups? Could you imagine if we applied some of this same logic to other products or entertainment?

    "Yeah, I know this Italian restaurant is rather crap, but lets eat there several days a week. Maybe someone will see there's a market for Italian restaurants and put in a new one."

    "My transmission went out again in the car. Even though it was covered by the warranty, this is the 2nd time in a year it went out. I'd buy different one but I just really love Fords."

    "That movie was so mediocre, but I wanted it to be awesome. Let's go back and purchase more tickets, that way they'll make a sequel that I know will be better."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Press_Start View Post
    If they believe Gamestop's used sales are hurting them, what's going to stop them from blaming brick n' mortal stores like Digital Press?
    If they believe Digital Press's used sales are hurting them, what's going to stop them from blaming ad sites like Craigslist?
    If they believe Craiglist ads are hurting them, what's going to stop them from blaming Game forums and trade sites like here?
    If they believe Gaming forums are hurting them, what's going to stop them from blaming every gamer that trades, borrows, sells, and every method that doesn't involve buying new games?

    When you put Gamestop on trial for used game sales, you put all of us on trial.
    If you read my posts more carefully, you'd see that my argument is clearly more sophisticated than "used games = bad". In fact, I think people buying and selling/donating used goods is a wonderful thing because it's far less wasteful than the materialistic urge to constantly blow through money buying brand new stuff and trashing anything you're tired of, and this was evident from my first post in this topic. It's not about putting anybody on trial for selling a used product; it's about the fact that the biggest retailer of brand new games is the same retailer that actively tries to convince consumers to pass on a new game, even if they walked into the store with the intent to buy new, and go for the used copy. Of course GameStop can continue to sell used games, but I don't see why anyone would be opposed to them slightly tweaking their policies to be more fair to the consumer and publisher alike. With Digital Press, I don't know if they make more on used or new, but I do know they pay more for trade-ins so they're not making quite as huge of a profit margin and aren't taking advantage of the consumer to the same extent.

    And publishers aren't going to go after any of those because those don't put a dent into sales like GameStop does. It's apples and oranges. You're talking about small independent shops and individuals. And with those, the used sales generally aren't anywhere near as close to launch as with GameStop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    it's about the fact that the biggest retailer of brand new games is the same retailer that actively tries to convince consumers to pass on a new game, even if they walked into the store with the intent to buy new, and go for the used copy.
    Wrong! Your whole premise is way off mark. It's not even "Used games = bad". It's "Used games = scapegoat" and you're laying the blame right at the feet of Gamestop without any facts or substantial proof to back it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    And publishers aren't going to go after any of those because those don't put a dent into sales like GameStop does. It's apples and oranges. You're talking about small independent shops and individuals. And with those, the used sales generally aren't anywhere near as close to launch as with GameStop.
    ! Are you serious? So DRM and Online Pass were tailor made solely to fight Gamestop and if they somehow "get fixed", it'll all go away huh? Get real! These were hits specifically on the second-hand market and consumers alike (Gamestop or not) and anyone who thinks otherwise are buying the propaganda garbage spewing right out their gold fat butts. They've already did it to Arkham City and they won't stop there. They'll never stop there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    It's not about putting anybody on trial for selling a used product; it's about the fact that the biggest retailer of brand new games is the same retailer that actively tries to convince consumers to pass on a new game, even if they walked into the store with the intent to buy new, and go for the used copy.
    The biggest retailer of video games wouldn't exist were it not for those used games and the industry would lose all of the benefits that come with a centralized location such as that.
    Last edited by Gamereviewgod; 02-23-2012 at 09:51 AM.

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    This boils down to one sadly forgotten thing called "end user rights".

    As consumers it is our right to sell/trade/rent the tangible physical content of products we purchased. At any price we like, to anyone we like. Regardless whether DRM prevents second-hand owners from using them for their perceived intended purpose.

    If I want to sell used boxed World of Warcraft copies or Xbox Live subscription cards and am able to find buyers who don't care they're 'useless'... I'm allowed to do so.

    Besides Gamestop is only current leader due to market forces. They weren't the first popular game chain. They won't be the last. Nobody's stopping a different company from opening another comparable brick and mortar chain who could take away their business. As steep as the entry barrier is. You'd need an ad campaign large/convincing enough to sway people over. Along with comparable enough service/prices/selection to maintain interest, and store locations in similarly enough convenient places across the country to win nationally. Etc. Not easy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by heybtbm View Post
    To be fair, this guy just watched a huge chunk of his parent company disappear. While used game sales aren't the main reason THQ is doing poorly...it's part of the reason. His comments are a little more understandable when you take them in context.
    Well, tough shit for them. GM had a few really bad years and almost went under, does that make it okay to ban used car sales?

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    Quote Originally Posted by goatdan View Post
    Yeah, THQ has been hurting. But, eliminate used titles, and you aren't going to magically fix the company. I can buy a used car, why didn't the government outlaw used car sales when Detroit was going bankrupt? Wouldn't that have solved the issue?
    Damnit, this is what happens when I accidentally skip page 2, sorry for "stealing" your point, goatdan

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