U.S. Sonic with UPC sells for $981.33

[wallydawg]

He won't get his Final Value for it

How much with ebay and paypal fees add up??

I listed it through an email that eBay sent me that stated "no entry fees, no final value fees." Paypal will probably hit me pretty hard, though.

For what its worth, the buyer is an SMS collector, and this was the last game he needed to complete his US set. He has been looking for it for quite a while and apparently other ones that have sold previous to this one were even more but that might just be speculation, I have no idea either way.

[Aussie2B]

This is actually a pretty interesting point. For example, Tommo distributed a number of Japanese release Saturn games to Gamestop including Radiant Silvergun. They shipped them with the Japanese Obi card, but the games had an additional barcode sticker on the outer wrap. I guess the fact that it's Sega rather than a third party (do we know this for sure?) that acted as the publisher/re-distributor in the US for Sonic gives it added value in the eyes of some collectors.

Oh, and there's also European Shenmue II for Dreamcast. I saw that for sale in practically every EB Games back in the day.

Yeah, in some of these cases, a third party may be handling the distribution, but I would guess that they'd all have to get authorization from the original publisher. So in my eyes at least, I don't see much of a difference with PAL Master System Sonic.

[TonyTheTiger]

This kind of subject is doomed to controversy, but that aside, I think it brings up an interesting issue of what truly constitutes a US (or any particular region) release. In my own personal opinion, I wouldn't consider this a genuine US release. It's just a PAL release chosen to be distributed elsewhere. If I was going for a full US Master System set, I'd probably pick up a PAL Sonic, and say "PAL Sonic was distributed in the US". I wouldn't care if that particular copy was shipped off to America or not because it's still the same product in the end.

But it seems like this game, when it has the UPC sticker, is unique in that it is counted as a US release by most collectors, when other games and game-related items in a similar scenario aren't.

Take, for example, Jump Superstars for DS, along with a handful of other early Japanese DS and PSP games. These were available for sale in American chain retail stores. I think Best Buy? Or was it Circuit City? No one considers these games as having a US release. I'm guessing these games had UPC stickers added to their packaging too.

Or, for another example, there are companies like Square Enix that make Japanese goods available to Americans online. You can buy, say, Japanese OSTs to Square Enix's games, yet no one lists them as having a US release on sites that thoroughly document that kind of stuff (vgmdb.net for OSTs). It's just thought of as "Hey, the company is giving me an opportunity to buy what they released in other countries, cool."

I'm going to throw my hat in with this. There are just so many examples of foreign products getting some measure of "official" distribution or distribution through traditional channels. Like said above, American retailers dealt in Saturn imports for a short time but how many people consider Radiant Silvergun part of an American full set?

But even playing devil's advocate, if the UPC sticker does change it into an American game, if somebody did start faking them the real tell would be a lot less high tech. People would just notice a strange increase in copies.

This is really not much different from the Games Quest Direct situation. When Games Quest Direct started distributing copies of formerly hard to find PS2 games people flipped their shit over whether or not there would be a way to distinguish between the releases. It just so happens that in that case there wasn't.

Maybe they use a really big magnifying glass?
Do you think VGA couldn't tell a real sticker from a fake?
Or is anyone who has basic chemistry supplies and a decent microscope 'CSI' to you?

There's only so much "information" that can exist in a sticker. People have gotten away with forging things a hell of a lot more complicated. You know...like money. Convincing "experts" that a UPC sticker is 20 years old is most certainly within the realm of believability.

Oh, and there's also European Shenmue II for Dreamcast. I saw that for sale in practically every EB Games back in the day.

Yeah, in some of these cases, a third party may be handling the distribution, but I would guess that they'd all have to get authorization from the original publisher. So in my eyes at least, I don't see much of a difference with PAL Master System Sonic.

Bingo. There's no way in hell they'd be able to distribute titles in major retailers in overseas markets without the go ahead. Whether or not it's Sega acting as the seller directly or giving the blessing to a third party shouldn't make a difference. Either way there has to be an official "Yeah, sell it."

In fact, Capcom had a problem with copies of Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter because the Norimaro character wasn't licensed for overseas so there was a bit of an issue over imports if I remember correctly. And I don't think those imports were even sanctioned by Capcom in the first place. They just ended up raising a small stink when they probably got yelled at.

[Jorpho]

Take, for example, Jump Superstars for DS, along with a handful of other early Japanese DS and PSP games.

Really?

PAL games I can understand, and there's certainly a lot of games that don't really require much comprehension of the language, but Jump Superstars is so enormously text-heavy that I am surprised any kind of major retailer would think enough copies would move to make it worthwhile. On the other hand, I suppose it might sell on packaging alone; but then again, I reckon it would accordingly get a lot of returns once a would-be purchaser realized how unplayable the game was.

[Aussie2B]

I thought it was a fighting game? Don't ask me, though, I just remember thinking "Huh, that's weird" when I saw this stuff for sale. :P Actually, I can't remember if all of those DS and PSP imports were Japanese or if some were European. I THINK they might've had European Breath of Fire III for PSP back then, but maybe my brain is making that up.

[InsaneDavid]

Buyer was happy (assuming he pays) and we know that the seller is more than happy.

At the end of the day, that's really what matters.

[skaar]

At the end of the day, that's really what matters.

This.

[fluid_matrix]

It would take less than 5 minutes to replicate that barcode and print it out on some white paper. By the time the buyer gets it graded the seller would be long gone with the money. (not saying this is the case here though).

http://www.barcoding.com/upc/

[digitpress Jim]

This reminds me of years back when I was younger at my local flee market, I remember seeing a copy of Sonic the Hedgehog on Sega Master System and didn't buy it =/ In all fairness, I didn't check to see if it had a UPC on it so it coulda been the common euro version. But still to this day I kick my self >

[jonebone]

Yeah I'm 50/50 on this. I think the ending price is definitely at the ridiculous level now, but unfortunately, the next sale may even be higher since at least two more people in this thread are legitimately interested.

I'm not going to say that faking a perfect sticker is a 5 minute operation, but you would think that faking a sticker is easier than reproducing a 100% identical box, or 100% identical shrinkwrap on a game that had never been opened (or creases would tell you it's a reseal).

I understand the collecting mentality, but I also could never drop that kind of money on a barcode.

[Jorpho]

I thought it was a fighting game?

Oh, it is, in the end, but it has many layers of subtle, intricate menu options, and you can't get very far without having to muck with them.

But we're getting off topic.

[MachineGex]

How much is the PAL version? Seems the US version is almost a grand, the PAL version must be at least $50????

Ooops, I am wrong. Looks like the PAL version goes for $5 plus shipping. That is a huge difference. I find it a little strange, but I understand someone trying to complete a collection and wanting a US copy. A grand is too much for me, but I can see why someone would spend some big cash to complete their collection. No way I would do it, but I see why people spend big money.

[SpaceFlea]

I honestly see this as being no different than collecting sealed games wherein you're practically paying premium for a plastic wrapper. It's about as easy to fake as a upc and you're taking the same risks.

Everyone has stuff for which they would pay bank; where others would see it as a blatant waste of funds. I find this discussion silly yet moderatly entertaining (only because some people seem desperate to grasp the logic of such a purchase and are failing miserably).

[understatement]

The same way they do it with comic books, or Magic Cards, or The Shroud of Turin. Take a teeniee weeniee piece you can't barely see with the naked eye.

I assure you that’s not how it’s done with Magic cards, I’ve had many expensive MTG cards that I paid well over a grand for. I’m pretty sure you were exaggerating but I will say the most common way to tell if a magic card is fake is:

With enough magnification, you will see a distinctive pattern in the color dots that make up the image that you see on the card. Most printers that counterfeiters use are a lower quality than is used to print real cards and you will see a distinct difference in the magnified pattern when compared to a real card, especially if you compare it to a known real card from the same expansion.

I would assume comic books have a similar method of authenticating.

Now, with the barcode stickers I’ve seen they have no dot pattern just a solid mass of ink that most any HQ printers can reproduce. Not saying you couldn’t tell if it was a fake but I think you would have to rely more on a process of deduction and instinct. (E.G. if you find it in a thrift it more than likely real and if it’s on ebay I would want to hear how the person came across it and HQ scans of the sticker, does it have standard wear and tear or does the w&t looked forced is the sticker to pristine compared to the box and so on)

After all that if I believe it’s real I would have no problem dropping that much money on it, as I said earlier I’ve spent much more on much less.

[megasdkirby]

I seriously can't spend so much money on a video game or anything non-essential. With nearly $1,000 at hand, I can spend it on dozens, even hundreds of games, not just ONE GAME. And a UPC sticker at that.

What if the box was found in the US but the card and manual were not? And both were mixed together? That is no different from getting it directly from the UK. No one would be the wiser.

[Bojay1997]

I honestly see this as being no different than collecting sealed games wherein you're practically paying premium for a plastic wrapper. It's about as easy to fake as a upc and you're taking the same risks.

Everyone has stuff for which they would pay bank; where others would see it as a blatant waste of funds. I find this discussion silly yet moderatly entertaining (only because some people seem desperate to grasp the logic of such a purchase and are failing miserably).

I don't know, I think beyond the wrapper, part of the appeal of sealed games is the idea that you are owning something that has never been used. I also think it's much harder to fake a sealed game because of the fact that there are always subtle clues underneath the wrap or in the wrap itself that make forgery more difficult unless the forger has a true sealed copy they are working from and a lot of expensive machinery.

I'm not saying I don't understand the desire of a hardcore SMS collector to own this variant, but personally, a barcode or variant of any kind doesn't really appeal to me and I would have a lot of trouble justifying paying almost a grand for a tiny little barcode difference on a game that goes for pocket change in mint condition ordinarily.

[Sunnyvale]

There's only so much "information" that can exist in a sticker. People have gotten away with forging things a hell of a lot more complicated. You know...like money. Convincing "experts" that a UPC sticker is 20 years old is most certainly within the realm of believability.

Fooling the 'experts' with counterfeit money is a bit tricky and there is no one who has pulled it off without getting caught in recent times. Possible, yes. Financially feasible? I don't think so. It gets tough to sell that third Sonic, where that third phony $20 moves like the first.

I assure you that’s not how it’s done with Magic cards, I’ve had many expensive MTG cards that I paid well over a grand for. I’m pretty sure you were exaggerating but I will say the most common way to tell if a magic card is fake is:

With enough magnification, you will see a distinctive pattern in the color dots that make up the image that you see on the card. Most printers that counterfeiters use are a lower quality than is used to print real cards and you will see a distinct difference in the magnified pattern when compared to a real card, especially if you compare it to a known real card from the same expansion.

I would assume comic books have a similar method of authenticating.

Now, with the barcode stickers I’ve seen they have no dot pattern just a solid mass of ink that most any HQ printers can reproduce. Not saying you couldn’t tell if it was a fake but I think you would have to rely more on a process of deduction and instinct. (E.G. if you find it in a thrift it more than likely real and if it’s on ebay I would want to hear how the person came across it and HQ scans of the sticker, does it have standard wear and tear or does the w&t looked forced is the sticker to pristine compared to the box and so on)

After all that if I believe it’s real I would have no problem dropping that much money on it, as I said earlier I’ve spent much more on much less.

You are correct, for the most part.
I forget the guy's name, but maybe you will remember; he made some amazingly perfect fake power 9. So realistic, that they'd even pass the bend test. A buddy of mine locally has been collecting for 15 years, never selling the big stuff. He has multiple Beta everything. He bought a huge lot for $5000 I think it was, and a few weeks later the word about them fake Moxes hit. All of the Beta power he just aquired he had tested in the manner I stated earlier. None of his were fakes, but he went through the trouble. If the dot pattern is kosher, then paper stock is most of what you have left to work with.

[understatement]

You are correct, for the most part.
I forget the guy's name, but maybe you will remember; he made some amazingly perfect fake power 9. So realistic, that they'd even pass the bend test. A buddy of mine locally has been collecting for 15 years, never selling the big stuff. He has multiple Beta everything. He bought a huge lot for $5000 I think it was, and a few weeks later the word about them fake Moxes hit. All of the Beta power he just aquired he had tested in the manner I stated earlier. None of his were fakes, but he went through the trouble. If the dot pattern is kosher, then paper stock is most of what you have left to work with.

I think what you’re referring to is re-backing it’s where you take a real P9 card from an official set called Collector’s Edition (this set was not playable) and take the gold border back off and replace it with a normal card back. It’s funny you mention paper stock as that was the way you would test this the re-backed card would be thicker, with it being two cards fused together it would not let light through like a normal card would.

There are a few other test that can be done that would not harm the card that’s not including the bend test or the water test these two are drastic tests that you only do when you know the card is fake but there nothing as drastic as “carbon dating” or whatever lab work your talking about (not to mention it would not prove anything as both cards used in this process are real cards) I think you might have misunderstood your friend and if you didn’t you might want to direct him to this so he can retest.

Also this is not done that much anymore as Collector Edition stuff is about as much as some real power now when this was big CE stuff was like $5~$10.

[The Coop]

So let me get this straight...

Sega brought over the PAL version of Sonic for the Master System, slapped on a UPC sticker, did nothing else to it, and now it's an "OMG L@@K RARE!" collectable?


...

Um, yeah.

As for the final bid price, I'll reserve comment so as not to offend. Suffice it to say, I guess that means I don't understand the mind of a collector... though I have watched a few episodes of "Hoarders," so I think I have a pretty good idea of it

[Orion Pimpdaddy]

So let me get this straight...

Sega brought over the PAL version of Sonic for the Master System, slapped on a UPC sticker, did nothing else to it, and now it's an "OMG L@@K RARE!" collectable?

That's pretty much it. Everyone collects in a different way. For me, I'd rather spend that money on other video games.

[The 1 2 P]

I can understand both sides of the arguement. I have never paid that much for a variant and find it alittle silly/ridiculous that it goes for that much. Then again, I collect demo disc, which are essentially incomplete video games. So I'm sure that is just as silly/ridiculous to people that don't collect them.

[Emperor Megas]

I can understand both sides of the arguement. I have never paid that much for a variant and find it alittle silly/ridiculous that it goes for that much. Then again, I collect demo disc, which are essentially incomplete video games. So I'm sure that is just as silly/ridiculous to people that don't collect them.

Only if you paid hundreds of dollars for them.

[The Coop]

That's pretty much it. Everyone collects in a different way. For me, I'd rather spend that money on other video games.

That's basically my stance. I like my games to be complete, and not look like they were thrown into a swimming pool after the dog molested them, but there's only so much I'll pay to get them in that condition. $900+ for a game is way, way, WAY past that limit.

[Griking]

What a weird scenario with this game. So it's exactly the same as a European copy except with a UPC sticker slapped on? I don't get why people would pay so much extra for that. It's still the exact same product, just with an added piece of packaging to distribute it in another region. They all came from the same manufacturing line. It would like if people spent a bunch more to get the b/w Neo Geo Pocket games that SNK made available by mail-order in the US as long as they had proof that those copies were mailed from the US branch, since the games themselves were the exact same ones made for Europe (if I'm remembering all of this right, correct me if I got any details wrong).

So because it's PAL doesn't that mean that it won't play on an American console or television set? I never got into imports.

[skaar]

Again, after all this... I need to print some UPC codes BRB.