Recommend Action RPG Games

[Arkhan]

I'm all for exploration and mapping areas out, but when I'm expected to press against every bit of wall to discover which are fake, that's when I call foul. I don't mind the idea of hidden walls in games, but when the game gives ZERO clues as to where they are, whether they be visual, aural, textual, etc., then that's just bad design. Way too many adventure games of that era are guilty of this, but Legacy of the Wizard is far more infuriating about it, especially in that so much of it is required for progress rather than being for bonus stuff that isn't necessary. .

So you are saying, you want visual/aural/text clues that tell you where hidden things are? That doesn't really make them hidden now does it? That makes it more like a toddler-toy.

You're aware that your family is exploring a huge UNEXPLORED area? Sorry they don't spoon feed you how to find the secret areas. That doesn't make it bad design. It fits the bill.

Your clue in LotW's case is "some walls may not be walls. find them"

alot of games of the era are "guilty" of this, because the games came out at a time when spoon feeding the player wasn't around yet. No colored text for important parts, or hints to tell you where to go next. No scooby doo looking secret walls.

Back when the adventure games required alot of thought, and effort. People toughed em out just fine. Spoon feeding and helping the player along is a fairly recent thing, and I think its stupid to be honest.

I cant imagine playing a game like Ultima and having half as much fun if the game told me all kinds of clues without having to search em out.

[pseudonym]

So you are saying, you want visual/aural/text clues that tell you where hidden things are? That doesn't really make them hidden now does it? That makes it more like a toddler-toy.

You're aware that your family is exploring a huge UNEXPLORED area? Sorry they don't spoon feed you how to find the secret areas. That doesn't make it bad design. It fits the bill.

Your clue in LotW's case is "some walls may not be walls. find them"

alot of games of the era are "guilty" of this, because the games came out at a time when spoon feeding the player wasn't around yet. No colored text for important parts, or hints to tell you where to go next. No scooby doo looking secret walls.

Back when the adventure games required alot of thought, and effort. People toughed em out just fine. Spoon feeding and helping the player along is a fairly recent thing, and I think its stupid to be honest.

I cant imagine playing a game like Ultima and having half as much fun if the game told me all kinds of clues without having to search em out.

A hint now and then besides, "some walls may not be walls. find them", would be nice. That's barely a clue anyway. I think most people expect a little help when you spend hours of trial and error searching with each character, hoping to find a hidden wall to continue through the game. Even adventure games and text games usually gave some subtle hints along the way.

I think it would be interesting to find out who actually beat this game without resorting to a online FAQ or some other help.

[johndarkness]

I wonder nobody mentioned these GC/DS games yet.
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles - Ring of Fates
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles - Echoes of Time

[BetaWolf47]

I wonder nobody mentioned these GC/DS games yet.
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles - Ring of Fates
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles - Echoes of Time

Huh? Neither of those are GC games. Speaking of which, I don't think anybody has mentioned the Tales games.

[Zoltor]

A hint now and then besides, "some walls may not be walls. find them", would be nice. That's barely a clue anyway. I think most people expect a little help when you spend hours of trial and error searching with each character, hoping to find a hidden wall to continue through the game. Even adventure games and text games usually gave some subtle hints along the way.

I think it would be interesting to find out who actually beat this game without resorting to a online FAQ or some other help.

I think you are in the wrong forum if you want sympathy, you will get none here little one(you want the modern gaming forum), so be on you way now.

Lol imagine someone complaining something hidden be actually hidden, give me a break)all such games would suck if you could trll were the secret doors were(I don't even want to imagine how dull the Wizardry, Faria or Zelda games would've been, among many, many other games).

[BetaWolf47]

A lot of the popular games do give you hints. The ones that are incredibly cryptic are often not remembered too fondly. You can tell when a wall is bombable in any of the Zelda games other than on the overworld in Zelda 1, while sidescrolling adventures have townspeople that spout out random hints. I can relate, though, because I can't stand how immeasurably cryptic the original Phantasy Star is.

[Zoltor]

A lot of the popular games do give you hints. The ones that are incredibly cryptic are often not remembered too fondly. You can tell when a wall is bombable in any of the Zelda games other than on the overworld in Zelda 1, while sidescrolling adventures have townspeople that spout out random hints. I can relate, though, because I can't stand how immeasurably cryptic the original Phantasy Star is.

Lol nothing is more cryptic then Faria(well wizardy skips over that, because they give no hints at all), the only hint you get is, that somewhere in so, and so tower is a secret door, but what they fail to mention is, that there are many secret doors in the tower, most of which are dead ends, so the hint is pretty pointless.

What are you talking about, in the original Zelda, you can't tell where any of the secret areas are(including in dungeons), don't you remember having to try bombing every wall(the only other option is to reveal every room you can get to first to get an idea where they may be, which is very unefficiant(and besides that's not even the game giving you a hint, that's you giving yourself a hint).

[Aussie2B]

So you are saying, you want visual/aural/text clues that tell you where hidden things are? That doesn't really make them hidden now does it? That makes it more like a toddler-toy.

You're aware that your family is exploring a huge UNEXPLORED area? Sorry they don't spoon feed you how to find the secret areas. That doesn't make it bad design. It fits the bill.

Your clue in LotW's case is "some walls may not be walls. find them"

alot of games of the era are "guilty" of this, because the games came out at a time when spoon feeding the player wasn't around yet. No colored text for important parts, or hints to tell you where to go next. No scooby doo looking secret walls.

Back when the adventure games required alot of thought, and effort. People toughed em out just fine. Spoon feeding and helping the player along is a fairly recent thing, and I think its stupid to be honest.

I cant imagine playing a game like Ultima and having half as much fun if the game told me all kinds of clues without having to search em out.

Uh, who said anything about spoon-feeding the player? I'm talking about CLUES, not the game blatantly pointing out things. Most games, at least since the 16-bit era but also many prior, give some form of a clue. Sometimes a secret wall has a subtly different tile, or the tile of the floor in front of the wall is slightly different, with a shadow or something like in StarTropics. Or sometimes the design of a room will try to direct you to something. Some games give a clue through sound, like if you stab a bombable wall in Zelda it'll play a different sound effect, or a game might have some kind of radar item, like in Lufia II you can hear a chime with a specific item if you missed a chest in a dungeon so you know to search for secret paths through walls or something else you missed. Or sometimes NPCs just tell you clues that you have to remember and make sense of, like in Battle of Olympus. Again, when done right, these things are SUBTLE, and then give a sense of accomplishment when you discover them because you've applied your own logical thinking and/or careful observation.

If you actually feel accomplished stumbling across something randomly by dumb luck, more power to you, but I don't feel like I've accomplished anything in those situations besides either getting lucky to find something right away or having the patience to tolerate a lot of trial and error. And if you want all of your adventure/RPG games to not give any clues whatsoever, then, well, you're sure limited in what you can play. There's a reason most developers quickly switched to incorporating some form of clues, and it's not because they wanted to lead the player hand-in-hand through the game. It's just good design.

[Zoltor]

If you actually feel accomplished stumbling across something randomly by dumb luck, more power to you, but I don't feel like I've accomplished anything in those situations besides either getting lucky to find something right away or having the patience to tolerate a lot of trial and error. And if you want all of your adventure/RPG games to not give any clues whatsoever, then, well, you're sure limited in what you can play. There's a reason most developers quickly switched to incorporating some form of clues, and it's not because they wanted to lead the player hand-in-hand through the game. It's just good design.

Um stop right there, people feel acomplished for "actually searching" for stuff(luck has nothing to do with anything, It's super rare to stumble into such things as secret door, infact basically unheard of), you want to find secret doors, then you better search every wall until you find it, if there is no secret door in one area, move on to the next area, and search there, It's that "simple".

[NerdXCrewWill]

I think that, while a very difficult game, Legacy of the Wizard isn't totally full of impossible to find hidden passages or anything. The only thing that is a little confusing is the character-specific items, if you haven't read the instruction manual or a faq. I suppose it's not clear through in-game text what exactly you're looking for, but once you realize that there are four crowns and a sword to collect, it's pretty straightforward. The challenge then comes from using skill to navigate the rooms and find more treasure chests. Rooms are either straightforward passages that require you to kill enemies or contain some kind of puzzle. Nothing essential to completion is hidden, if I remember correctly.

[Aussie2B]

Um stop right there, people feel acomplished for "actually searching" for stuff(luck has nothing to do with anything, It's super rare to stumble into such things as secret door, infact basically unheard of), you want to find secret doors, then you better search every wall until you find it, if there is no secret door in one area, move on to the next area, and search there, It's that "simple".

And do you actually find that tedious trial and error fun? Do you honestly believe that's good design? What's there to feel accomplished about? Like I said, the only "accomplishment" is proving that you have the patience to suffer through monotonous, waste of time crap like that. Or if you really want to stretch it, you could argue that it's an accomplishment to stay alive through battling all the enemies you encounter as you endlessly search each tile, waiting to finally come across that one fake wall you need to find to progress.

Now if the player is doing that searching with some form of knowledge other than "this game has some fake walls", then that's a genuine accomplishment when you apply that knowledge to make a discovery.

[Ruudos]

Secret of Evermore
Secret of Mana
Illusion of Time
Terranigma
Zelda II
Faxanadu
The Battle of Olympus

[backguard]

I highly recommend Darkstone for the PSX. It was budget release late in the system's life, but it's a surprisingly deep game.

You can find this one on the cheap too. Decent game.

Has anyone mentioned Sacred 2? Demon's Souls?

Sacred 2 has an awesome character building system. Complicated as heck but once you figure out how it works it is pretty cool.

Edit: Were the SMT Devil Summoner titles any good? I heard they were action rpgs.

[Zoltor]

And do you actually find that tedious trial and error fun? Do you honestly believe that's good design? What's there to feel accomplished about? Like I said, the only "accomplishment" is proving that you have the patience to suffer through monotonous, waste of time crap like that. Or if you really want to stretch it, you could argue that it's an accomplishment to stay alive through battling all the enemies you encounter as you endlessly search each tile, waiting to finally come across that one fake wall you need to find to progress.

Now if the player is doing that searching with some form of knowledge other than "this game has some fake walls", then that's a genuine accomplishment when you apply that knowledge to make a discovery.

Tedious, hell no, not at all(since 99% of all secret doors in games aren't required to progress through the game, and the ones that are, are almost always in a very obvious spot), fun yes, finding hidden areas you had no idea was there is always a good thing, and to have your hard work finally pay off is always a great feeling.

No It's not bad design lol, especially when such things are in Action/RPGs, and Action/Adventure, half the fun is exploration(hell that's one of the main aspects of both of those sub genres).

I strongly suggest you go over to the modern gaming forums, where there are no such thing as RPGs(they are just stories with crappy movies), and where Adventure games no longer require adventuring.

You really should leave before the linch mob shows up.

PS.If anything is a bad design, It's how games today make "secret" doors not so secret lol, it makes me sick.

[Rickstilwell1]

Nobody answered this yet but what draws the line between Zelda (especially A Link to the Past) and Alundra being RPG or not? Both of them have money, both of them have a story, interactive characters to talk to, bosses to fight, areas to explore and a large inventory of items. Not to mention weapon and armor upgrades, and upgrades to other equipment.

If Zelda is an action adventure, then by definition wouldn't Alundra also be an action adventure and not an RPG? neither of them require leveling up

[backguard]

Wow this thread has been totally hijacked. Have any of you read the OP?

[Zoltor]

Wow this thread has been totally hijacked. Have any of you read the OP?

Yea, I so shouldn't have bit the bait the troll left, sorry.

Well back on topic, you can never go wrong with Crystalis or Secret of Mana. If you are looking for action/RPGs those 2 are must get.

[Arkhan]

I beat legacy of the wizard when I was in elementary school, before we even had the internet. I have friends who can attest to this.

I come from the Ultima/D&D Goldbox/Wizardry school of RPGs. Clues are a luxury. I'll play games where they make it easier since they're still fun... but I think it's kind of lame half the time when they clue you in on everything.

All of the old "cryptic" games are tedious if you're used to playing newer games where they dumb everything down.

I'd love to go adventuring IRL and be plopped down in a dungeon where all the secret doors were a different color, the explodable walls look funny, and all the local townsfolk are in-the-know about all sorts of adventurous crap. If they know all this stuff, why don't they go save the world instead.

Legacy of the Wizard isn't even a hard game. Read the manual so you know what you are supposed to do, spend about I dunno, 10 hours playing it, and you'll probably finish it.

I didn't know you were an expert on game design, Aussie2B.

Back on topic: How about Brain Lord.

Forgot about that and Illusion of Gaia

[Aussie2B]

Tedious, hell no, not at all(since 99% of all secret doors in games aren't required to progress through the game, and the ones that are, are almost always in a very obvious spot)

If it's "obvious", then the game is giving you some kind of clue, be it in the design of the room or whatever else has made it obvious. I don't know why you guys can't differentiate the concept of a subtle clue that takes thought to figure out and a flashing, neon arrow pointing to exactly what you need to do.

And we were talking about Legacy of the Wizard, in which the secrets aren't obvious and often are required. Like I said in my first post, when it is just for bonus stuff, I largely don't mind if something has to found purely by random luck or trial and error, but if you base the normal game around that, again I say it's bad design and reducing the entertainment value because it's turning it more into work than fun, regardless of if you feel satisfied upon finally discovering a secret. If anything, it's more akin to relief than anything else.

I strongly suggest you go over to the modern gaming forums, where there are no such thing as RPGs(they are just stories with crappy movies), and where Adventure games no longer require adventuring.

You really should leave before the linch mob shows up.

Uh huh. And I'm supposed to be the troll? Sorry, but I don't see any "linch" mob showing up. Nice way to insult modern games and their fans as a whole there. But I'll have you know I play retro games far, far more than modern games, and when I play classic RPGs and adventure games, I usually play them completely "old school", meticulously drawing out maps and taking notes. I have absolutely zero problem with difficult old games that expect me to take it slow and explore every corner, but I will point out bad design where I feel I see it and not attribute it to an "old vs. new" line of thought.

And honestly, "troll bait"? I was just posting my opinions for crying out loud.

I didn't know you were an expert on game design, Aussie2B.

Are you seriously going to turn this into a penis wagging competition? Nobody has to be an expert on anything to post their thoughts here. But if you're going to try to act like my opinions aren't as credible as yours because you think you have more knowledge than me, fine, I'll share my background. I don't know or care if it makes me an "expert" or not, but I've been a nationally publisher reviewer for half a decade, I've won cash prizes recognizing the quality of my critiques, I have a BS in Computer Science, and I've programmed a handful of amateur games. So, yes, I do think I know a thing or two about game design, but obviously everyone has differing opinions on what constitutes good and bad design. I also know that nearly all of the most widely praised RPGs and adventure games give some form of clues about their secrets, just as BetaWolf47 pointed out.

[Arkhan]

Are you seriously going to turn this into a penis wagging competition? Nobody has to be an expert on anything to post their thoughts here. But if you're going to try to act like my opinions aren't as credible as yours because you think you have more knowledge than me, fine, I'll share my background. I don't know or care if it makes me an "expert" or not, but I've been a nationally publisher reviewer for half a decade, I've won cash prizes recognizing the quality of my critiques, I have a BS in Computer Science, and I've programmed a handful of amateur games. So, yes, I do think I know a thing or two about game design, but obviously everyone has differing opinions on what constitutes good and bad design. I also know that nearly all of the most widely praised RPGs and adventure games give some form of clues about their secrets, just as BetaWolf47 pointed out.

I don't like wagging penises. It's kind of a waste of time to share backgrounds and brag about who did what. If you have programmed a few games before and know a thing or two, fine. If you've won prizes and are an experienced reviewer, fine.

slight tangent: a CS degree doesn't really do anything in the way of game design. Just sayin' (from experience).

Then, You should be aware that there are different kinds of adventure games, and that the earliest ones which take a more D&D approach, require more effort. Perhaps consider them more "advanced". You seem to have no problem playing games where you have to take notes and make maps, so what is so wrong with having to prod all of the screens in legacy of the wizard? There aren't THAT many screens in the game.

Ultima *is* a widely praised RPG series, and they do not present you with much in the way of clues/information. You have to go seek it all out and actively research information from NPCs. If you go through Ultima without talking to anyone, its impossible to win the game. You wont know what you're doing.

The goldbox D&D series *is* a widely praised RPG series, and you really don't find too many clues about secrets in them...You get some journal entries, but alot of that was just copy protection, and memory saving w/ smoke and mirrors.

the problem people have with LotW is that on the surface it appears to be an action platformer. Once the player doesn't understand that there is more to it, and decides to just run around killing stuff and trying to "win", all is lost.

You have to investigate all of the rooms, make maps, use trial and error. Its no different than trying to beat Quest of the Avatar for the first time. Noone clues you in on where any of the runes are, or who will tell you what about where to do things. Everyone got along fine, spent alot of time on the game and its hailed as a classic.

What kind of clue would really fit into LotW without making it too easy? There are no NPCs to chit-chat with, and to be honest, I think it's fairly obvious and simple to understand that on any given screen, its possible that many blocks can be passed through. If you see a place that's "blocked", try finding your way through it.

and I mean this in all seriousness, you might think the MSX version is less of a pain in the ass.

The NES one has scrolling so the division of "screens" is kind of hard to discern. The MSX one is screen-by-screen so you can keep track of what you've poked at a lot easier, especially with a map.

My map I made was on like 4 sheets of paper taped together. I moved a little figure from room to room as I played so I knew where i was and what was going on.

Nowadays theres BIG images of the entire game you can just print out and use. talk about easy.

[rgw825]

I will recommend the game that was recommended to me when i asked about some good RPG's. The Twisted Tales of Spike Mcfang. I really enjoyed it. It was short but i didn't care.

[pseudonym]

I think you are in the wrong forum if you want sympathy, you will get none here little one(you want the modern gaming forum), so be on you way now.

Lol imagine someone complaining something hidden be actually hidden, give me a break)all such games would suck if you could trll were the secret doors were(I don't even want to imagine how dull the Wizardry, Faria or Zelda games would've been, among many, many other games).

Trial and error searching/exploring is great when it's done right like in Zelda and Wizardry; LotW has an overabundance of it and it gets tiring pretty quick.

Odd that you talk about Modern Gaming, most of your posts seems to be there. Why don't you stick to that forum instead of trolling in Classic Gaming? Ass.

[Arkhan]

maybe im alone in my LotW isnt that bad club

[Zoltor]

maybe im alone in my LotW isnt that bad club

Nah you aren't alone, It's just kids these days.

Really, if he thinks that game is harsh, I hate to see him try playing Faria, now that's a insane omount of secret doors with no hints(lol it took me a couple of weeks to find my way through the one tower, the first time I played that game).

It's funny though, he has no problem with games like Wizardy though(huge maps, no hints, and few secret doors, but for the most part you have to find the secret doors to progress through the game).

To the troll: Lol perhaps you should see what my posts are. Lets see, making fun of Sony, and talking about retrogame challenge lol which is technically a collection of classic games/clones.

[pseudonym]

Nah you aren't alone, It's just kids these days.

Really, if he thinks that game is harsh, I hate to see him try playing Faria, now that's a insane omount of secret doors with no hints(lol it took me a couple of weeks to find my way through the one tower, the first time I played that game).

It's funny though, he has no problem with games like Wizardy though(huge maps, no hints, and few secret doors, but for the most part you have to find the secret doors to progress through the game).

To the troll: Lol perhaps you should see what my posts are. Lets see, making fun of Sony, and talking about retrogame challenge lol which is technically a collection of classic games/clones.

I never used the word harsh, I said it was tedious and it is for the most part. Both Faria and LotW aren't the best games of their respective genres but they're decent enough.

You seem to like making blanket statements about things without really knowing anything, that was my problem with you. How do you know how old I am? I could be older than you. And just because a game is old doesn't make it inherently better than newer games. Having a ton of hidden shit scattered around in a game with little to go on besides testing each and every wall, nook, and cranny doesn't necessarily make a great game as you seem to imply.

Wow, you made fun of Sony! Good for you! Come back when you have something to contribute instead of trying to troll.