Saturn OutRun: The best version of the classic game because: 60FPS + remixed music?

[slylecoco]

60FPS does not make a game better unless the game was designed for it. I am also fairly confident that all '80s sprite scaling games topped at 30fps or below.

Hi and Thx to you.

Everywhere i see it's the better version of Outrun because 60fps...

My european version looks perfect.

I bought japanese release, but i don't understand really what the difference wiil be...

[fahlim003]

60FPS does not make a game better unless the game was designed for it.

OutRun is one of the few super-scaler games by Sega that didn't run at 60fps (another being Enduro Racer) and while it's still a great game at the normal <60fps the Smooth mode on Saturn blows the original away. I think it's fair to say they intended to have OutRun run at 60 but for whatever reason it wasn't acheived. The Saturn version with Smoothing is the best version around, bar-none.

I am also fairly confident that all '80s sprite scaling games topped at 30fps or below.

This is plain crazy. Pardon OutRun and Enduro Racer nearly all other Space Harrier & OutRun hardware games ran at a blistering 60fps, and that's just talking about Sega.

OutRun hardware:
Super Hang-On 1987 - a little slow
Turbo OutRun 1989

Space Harrier hardware:
Space Harrier 1985 - definitely not 30fps, not even close
Hang-On 1985
Enduro Racer 1986 - 30 for sure

X Board hardware:
After Burner 2 1987 - Final Takeoff
Super Monaco GP 1989 - nuff said

[sheath]

Hi and Thx to you.

Everywhere i see it's the better version of Outrun because 60fps...

My european version looks perfect.

I bought japanese release, but i don't understand really what the difference wiil be...

I am only a gamer because of Space Harrier and After Burner in the Arcades. When they came out on 32X I thought they were perfect ports. I still do.

I love playing them on my US Sega Ages disk or in Shenmue and Shenmue II, but the enhanced framerates are just that. But then, I actually prefer playing Outrun on SMS and Genesis, so what do I know.

[slylecoco]

1) Is it possible smooth is enable by default in the US and EU versions, and is an option for japanese release ??

2) And what about Tv render ?

You know, playing japanese game on european Saturn, 50/60 hz (my Tv is a Samsung plasma 42")...

For you, at my home, Outrun (Jap) will be in full screen or stretch, black border,... ?

[sheath]

This is plain crazy. Pardon OutRun and Enduro Racer nearly all other Space Harrier & OutRun hardware games ran at a blistering 60fps, and that's just talking about Sega.

OutRun hardware:
Super Hang-On 1987 - a little slow
Turbo OutRun 1989

Space Harrier hardware:
Space Harrier 1985 - definitely not 30fps, not even close
Hang-On 1985
Enduro Racer 1986 - 30 for sure

X Board hardware:
After Burner 2 1987 - Final Takeoff
Super Monaco GP 1989 - nuff said

I am really not trying to be a jerk about this. There isn't a frame advance on those youtube videos, and they are running on MAME not real hardware. I have asked in various forums where MAME emulator people were chatting and nobody has tested the real hardware for max framerate.

[fahlim003]

I love playing them on my US Sega Ages disk or in Shenmue and Shenmue II, but the enhanced framerates are just that. But then, I actually prefer playing Outrun on SMS and Genesis, so what do I know.

They aren't enchanced, watch the MAME clips in my post above. I don't know where you came up with idea of slow frame rates but you're clearly under the wrong impression.

1) Is it possible smooth is enable by default in the US and EU versions, and is an option for japanese release ??

Go into the options menu and find out. By "GAME MODE" it will say OVERSEAS or JAPAN and if it's in smooth mode (SMOOTH) will be beside the name.

I am uploading a recording of Smooth and normal Saturn modes, it will be up shortly.

[sheath]

They aren't enchanced, watch the MAME clips in my post above. I don't know where you came up with idea of slow frame rates but you're clearly under the wrong impression.

I think we failed to connect here. My impressions come from the actual arcade units. Then I have asked some of the MAME emulator authors about the original hardware limitations and they did not know.

So, the games running over 60FPS on a modern PC with MAME is not proof of anything.

[c0ldb33r]

am uploading a recording of Smooth and normal Saturn modes, it will be up shortly.

Should be neat but the quality must be super high otherwise we can't see the difference.

[fahlim003]

I think we failed to connect here. My impressions come from the actual arcade units. Then I have asked some of the MAME emulator authors about the original hardware limitations and they did not know.

So, the games running over 60FPS on a modern PC with MAME is not proof of anything.

You're claiming somehow MAME is running these games significantly faster, in some cases twice as fast as original? I know of speed differences of games in the arcade and how they perform on MAME but to suggest Hang-On (and the other 60fps games I addressed) ran at 30fps originally is absolute garbage. The Saturn OutRun wouldn't have anyone giving a shit about it if it didn't significantly improve the framerate from the arcade - I repeat, not MAME, not the actual arcade unit, not the Dreamcast Yu Suzuki's Game Works Vol.1 version, nor the OutRun2 Xbox version run at a different framerate from each other. Only, and I mean only the Saturn version with Smooth on runs at 60 all the others are 30. The descrepancy between MAME and home version of other games such as Hang-On, Power Drift, After Burner 2, and Space Harrier are nearly dead on and I've yet to see anyone pardon yourself suggest they are running faster than original. I'm not saying these people aren't out there but the evidence supports that possibly they don't or the difference isn't as great as you claim.

Besides, there are enough videos on youtube showing actual arcade machine game-play:

Space Harrier actual: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN1tJIXJ2fk
Space Harrier MAME: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUA9pVBS_7k

If you cannot say these aren't running at near the same speed as one another... well, I don't know what to say. The evidence is black and white.

Should be neat but the quality must be super high otherwise we can't see the difference.

Should be clear.

This is my copy, V1.005 of OutRun (NTSC-J) running in SSF .10. I run initially in default (30fps) then I switch to Smooth, which is 60 and is only on Saturn - no other conversion has this good of framerate. The strange pause at the end is due to my screensaver coming on - SSF doesn't block/override that.

[sheath]

You're claiming somehow MAME is running these games significantly faster, in some cases twice as fast as original? I know of speed differences of games in the arcade and how they perform on MAME but to suggest Hang-On (and the other 60fps games I addressed) ran at 30fps originally is absolute garbage. The Saturn OutRun wouldn't have anyone giving a shit about it if it didn't significantly improve the framerate from the arcade - I repeat, not MAME, not the actual arcade unit, not the Dreamcast Yu Suzuki's Game Works Vol.1 version, nor the OutRun2 Xbox version run at a different framerate from each other. Only, and I mean only the Saturn version with Smooth on runs at 60 all the others are 30. The descrepancy between MAME and home version of other games such as Hang-On, Power Drift, After Burner 2, and Space Harrier are nearly dead on and I've yet to see anyone pardon yourself suggest they are running faster than original. I'm not saying these people aren't out there but the evidence supports that possibly they don't or the difference isn't as great as you claim.

I really do think we got off to a wrong start. I am only challenging this modern assertion because I have seen no facts to support it. Let me say it differently.

Plenty of games run at 60Hz and don't have 60 frames per second of animation. I am suggesting, based on experience, that no '80s scaler game scaled sprites at 60 frames per second. I would actually be highly surprised if the display target (RGB Monitors?) or the hardware was capable of doing so.

The rest of the game running at 60Hz or something close depending on the target monitor is probably a given.

[fahlim003]

I really do think we got off to a wrong start. I am only challenging this modern assertion because I have seen no facts to support it. Let me say it differently.

Plenty of games run at 60Hz and don't have 60 frames per second of animation. I am suggesting, based on experience, that no '80s scaler game scaled sprites at 60 frames per second. I would actually be highly surprised if the display target (RGB Monitors?) or the hardware was capable of doing so.

The rest of the game running at 60Hz or something close depending on the target monitor is probably a given.

I'm not talking about monitor refresh rates, I'm talking about in-game framerates. Again, watch these videos and rationalize how they are not running at the same speed.
Space Harrier actual: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN1tJIXJ2fk
Space Harrier MAME: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUA9pVBS_7k

[kedawa]

Almost all arcade games run at 60fps. It isn't some awesome feat.

[sheath]

I'm not talking about monitor refresh rates, I'm talking about in-game framerates. Again, watch these videos and rationalize how they are not running at the same speed.
Space Harrier actual: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN1tJIXJ2fk
Space Harrier MAME: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUA9pVBS_7k

Youtube videos really do_not help this discussion. If I could frame advance and count 60 solid frame transitions in a second I would know you are right.

I can't even tell if that camera recording is recorded at 60fps (it probably isn't). All I need is somebody with an actual arcade cabinet to make some effort into proving what the scaling framerate was. Even a modern screen capture using a camera recording at 60FPS would do.

[slylecoco]

In Out Run from Sega Ages Europe, no smooth option in game mode.

the hidden option doesn't exist !

I knew this tip, i tryed it when i bought the game, but no results..

It's why i bought Jap version.

But i hope i won't be disappointed...

[Cafeman]

60FPS does not make a game better unless the game was designed for it.

I can remember having a similar conversation in the late 90's on the now defunct Dreamcast Technical Pages Forum. I also remember when I unlocked the 60fps mode on my Sega Ages copy of Outrun.

It's a treat, no doubt about it! Jaw-dropping back in the day. But since the 60fps makes the game seem to run much slower in pace (not frame rate), it's a trade-off. It makes the game easier too.

I prefer the original 30fps. the Saturn version is my favorite version regardless of the 60fps mode (I can't remember if it is called 'smooth mode' but maybe it is). Outrun's resolution is more a good fit for Saturn than on the newer systems like DC (Shenmue version) and Outrun2 on Xbox. On these newer systems, it is more obvious that Outrun is dated for some reason. Fits like a glove when seeing & hearing the game running on the Saturn. I hope you all are understanding what I'm trying to convey!

[slylecoco]

On a big tv (107 cm for example),

Old game "pixel" a lot..

My Out Run is beautiful, but a bit too big.

And i can't resize the screen as i'd like...

Damn, must i play on a 55 cm/70cm tv to have a good render ?...

[fahlim003]

It's a treat, no doubt about it! Jaw-dropping back in the day. But since the 60fps makes the game seem to run much slower in pace (not frame rate), it's a trade-off. It makes the game easier too.

Agreed, the sense of speed takes a hit but in general it looks far better. I don't mind original 30fps either myself, but having upped framerate is a definite improvement. I also don't think it's significantly easier, only marginally but then again the Saturn port in general is quite good as it has very little input delay when compared to MAME.

With respect to my comparison video on youtube it seems the quality is nerfed so it doesn't show accurately how much changes. I uploaded the video in proper quality here if anyone is interested:http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RMDP356Q

[Cafeman]

It makes the game easier because the cars & curves seem to approach you just a bit slower, giving you more reaction time. Once I turned on the 60fps mode, I couldn't lose! Maybe I'm just a superior Outrun player compared to you...

[slylecoco]

Ok,

now it's clear for me.

1) Out Run for Saturn is the BEST version og this fabulous arcade coin-up.

And it's a real fan who write it.

I've plenty version of it, but Saturn is the best one.

2) Out Run Jap version is better, because smooth mode really change quality at screen.
More pleasant, less tiring...

You've just to change it in game option, after, you won't play without !

At the beginin, i thought smooth = bilinear filtering.
In fact, no. It's a shame.....

[tomaitheous]

Here's the real question; is it just object point interpolation of scaling vectors or is it real 60fps gameplay? I'd suspect they'd kept the game logic to the original at 30fps and the visuals at 60fps (for that option), but hey - it could be 60/60. The reason I say this, is that it's not uncommon for some games to run 30/60 instead of 60/60. So updating the game from 30/30 to 30/60 wouldn't change the gameplay per se for Outrun.