The Modern Problem with SHUMPS...

[VitaminX]

I don't think shmups will ever make a resurgence in the US nor the UK anytime soon. Most people are turned off by the high difficulty, or if the game gives you unlimited continues, they're turned off by the length because they'll blow through the entire game in 30 minutes. I wonder what the answer could be? Plus the fact that most shmups get bad reviews because of one or both, reasons which doesn't help either. I wonder what still makes the genre so popular in Japan?. I know many of the developers don't release their titles oversea's, realising there not going to sell.

[Coldguy]

See www.jerseygames.com on the article I hate smups, sums it up for you.

[guitargary75]

I love SHUMPS.

[Poofta!]

i love shmups, but each one i purchase, i fully to never beat it (due to difficulty) or beat it very fast (unlimited continues).

never the less, its will be a very fun night (or even several!) for my friend and i !

[klausien]

Anyone who loves shoot 'em ups wishes there were more released outside of Japan, and has a right to grumble about paying the big bucks to import them. Any wholesale hate for a genre is rarely justified, and never 100% right. People need to agree to disagree, especially when it comes to something as subjective as video games (or art, music & film), but this is America of course; Land of the "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality, and the yearly $50-60 roster update for the same old sports games you can play for free with a couple friends and a ball (hypocritical statement alert - admitted hater of "simulation" sports games, save any tennis game and arcadey sports like the NES Tecmo Bowls and the like). But I digress...

The World of Shmups underwent a sea change in the late '90's toward the so called "Manic" or "Bullet Hell" type of shooter, thanks to the stellar work of companies like Cave, Psikyo & Takumi, among others. The only worthwhile non-manic franchises still standing are arguably the Raiden & Gradius series. Also, the horizontally-scrolling shooter has all but disappeared due to the fact that the manic style tends to work best vertically (though anyone who has put some time in with Progear would disagree). This move towards more extreme, expert types of games has inflamed the already prevalent love/hate situation with the genre, feeding the requisite zealotry on both sides.

There is a push/pull going on in terms of US releases, as developers see the high prices paid for games like the PS2 Cave ports and want a piece of the action, but publishers who take the plunge rarely see the returns they expected on their investment (usually because they add 'enhancements" and leave out the necessary tate mode for vertical shooters, but that's an argument for another thread). What it all boils down to is the same niche fanbase purgatory we've been in since the death knell of the shmup in the US was felt at the end (some would say midpoint) of the 16-Bit age. The Duo was the last bastion of shmups in the US, and we all know how dreadfully it did in the marketplace under the weight of changing tastes and larger marketing budgets.

So, at least the shmup is alive and well in Japan, though the declining arcade business is beginning to cut that down to size as well. Regardless, I can't imagine that the "space shooter" will ever die, as it is one of the central cornerstones of the history of gaming, and one of the last ways to get that pure Zen meditative, adrenaline-rush dichotomy that all of the best pure video games of any genre have. No need to think about or learn complex controls. Just grab a pad or stick; one button shoots, one button bombs. That's where the beauty lies.

[Captain Wrong]

Wait a minute. In order to make a statement like "I don't think shmups will ever make a resurgence in the US nor the UK anytime soon," that would imply someone is trying to bring them back. That's not happening, nor is it going to. Shmups are a niche genre, even in Japan* and they aren't going to make a comeback nor is anyone trying for one.

* yes, I've been to Japan within the last year and being a huge shmup fan I was a bit suprised to find the conventional Western wisdom that this genre was still ruling the roost over seas was quite wrong. Sure, you still see them in the dark back corner of the arcades, alone and unplayed. And yeah, most game stores still stock a couple of titles. So you do see shmups more over there than over here. But this perception that shmups are popular in Japan is flat out wrong, at least in my experience. More popular than here? Yes. But still a small niche thing at best.

[TurboGenesis]

* yes, I've been to Japan within the last year and being a huge shmup fan I was a bit suprised to find the conventional Western wisdom that this genre was still ruling the root over seas was quite wrong. Sure, you still see them in the dark back corner of the arcades, alone and unplayed. And yeah, most game stores still stock a couple of titles. So you do see shmups more over there than over here. But this perception that shmups are popular in Japan is flat out wrong, at least in my experience. More popular than here? Yes. But still a small niche thing at best.

Quote For Truth…

[Cornelius]

I'm only a very casual fan of this genre, but reading this thread made me wonder if the switch to wide-screen TVs is having an impact, particularly regaurding horizontal vs. vertical. With the original Gradius as my primary experience with shoot 'em ups, I'd think wide-screen would lend itself to horizontal moreso than vertical.

[TonyTheTiger]

I'll tell you the #1 problem with Shoot-em-ups and why the genre is on life support at the moment.

Developers create very short games that are theoretically beatable in 20 minutes and then to simulate "value" they make the game not only absurdly hard but also a memorization fest. There's too many shoot-em-ups that require you to die in order to realize "Oh, so I have to move a bit to the left..." Then when you complete that it happens again 20 seconds later.

Shoot-em-ups are great fun. But for some reason the dev teams making them are obsessed with turning a 20 minute game into a 3 month exercise in route memorization. Sure, it looks cool to see 100,000 shots of the same laser blast fly around the screen like a spirograph but, frankly, if it takes that much work to progress through the game...it's just not worth it. People complain about games being too easy but it's also possible for games to be too hard. And, again, it's not a good hard where you die just because you weren't good enough. It's a WTF hard where you die because you aren't psychic.

[otaku]

I love em precisely because they're hard. I like to continously improve etc these games demand skill and are very addicting.

[TonyTheTiger]

Do they really demand skill? I'm talking the ones where there's essentially only one place to hide. There's one precise movement to make. That doesn't scream skill to me. Maybe talent as not everyone is capable of moving their fingers in such a way with such precision. But it definitely screams memorization of both the mind and the fingers. If it is skill it's not the same kind of skill that comes from something like fighting games where the execution of the moves isn't important but rather the use of them that is. I feel like the fewer viable options a player is given and the less time available to utilize those options the less skill that's involved because then it doesn't become a game of decision making and twitch reflexes. It becomes a game where success is based on practice through repetition. A game about perpetually learning the game.

I think I'd feel much better about the difficulty of the genre if the enemies and shots weren't predetermined. Tetris is hard but it's different each time. Imagine if it weren't. Sure, more people would have mastered it but it looses the thinking part. If there was actually an A.I. aspect to the game so the exact same move doesn't work every single time or the exact same move doesn't fail every single time more people would play. Being good isn't the same as being practiced and I think the repetition a lot of these games require puts people off. It feels like a waste of time to die just because you didn't know what was up ahead.

[ssjlance]

I still dig out Mars Matrix and Ikaruga on DC when I need a good SHMUP fix. Also, a few for the SNES work really well for that (Darius Twin, Super R-Type, Axelay, Phalanx, etc). But I never buy a SHMUP when it first hits shelves. Why? Because, $50 is a bit much for the typ of game. It is a lot of fun, but not for a very long time. If they were released as budget titles at about $20 - $30 a pop, my shelves would be lined with them. I'm still waiting for Raiden III for PS2 to drop enough for me to justify picking it up. Same with puzzle games. I love them to death, but $50 for the newest Tetris just seems absurd to me.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Do I like these games? Yes, but only up to a point.

I hate those games that require you to have pixel-perfect moving skills. Bullet barrages that fill up 95% of the screen ARE NOT FUN AT ALL.

[Aussie2B]

To make a bad pun, I'd say shmup developers are shooting themselves in their own foots by purposely limiting their already limited audience. There IS room out there for more than just "bullet hell" type shooters, but that's what almost every modern shooter is. It is possible to be a shooter fan without finding that type of gameplay enjoyable, contrary to what they may believe, and I know I personally would support the genre more if they would show the same support for MY tastes and I bet I'm not the only one out there. As it is, I'll take a 16-bit style shooter ANY day, where there's actual design to the stages as well.

[TonyTheTiger]

I think it comes down to the ease of development. There is a such thing as the "disposable shooter syndrome" where a player sets the game on easy, blows through it, and never picks it up again. To counter this, developers have proceeded to increase the difficulty. It's just that the way they chose to do so screams "lazy." Rather than trying for more creative stage design or implementing an A.I. system or even increasing the variety of enemies, they just put more crap on screen that can kill you and say "now find the 2% of the screen where you'll be safe and do it for 5 or 6 levels." It also provides for a nice grab. People like flashiness and a barrage of greens and purples is an attention grabber which maybe you need when your game is sitting next to stuff like Tekken 5, Devil May Cry 4, and Mass Effect.

[Captain Wrong]

I'm really confuesed here. If you have unlimited continues and no difficulity, when have shmups ever been more than a 20 minute game? These are arcade games, after all. They are designed to be quarter munchers. Always have been.

Memorization a new thing? Umm...ever played R-Type? "It becomes a game where success is based on practice through repetition. A game about perpetually learning the game." Yeah, that pretty much nails the genre for as long as I've been playing 'em. You play until you die and hopefully learn from your mistakes next time.

I think a lot of you are looking for something in the genre that was never there and isn't supposed to be. Shmups as I've played them (and as pretty much everyone else I known to play them has played them) has been a quest to improve your score and get a 1CC. That's not supposed to be easy and there's going to be a lot of trial and error (heavy on the error) to get there.

That's not skill? Whew, you all are a tough crowd. I've yet to 1CC any shmup (at least on default settings) and I consider myself a pretty big fan. Sorry, there's lot more than just memorization to these things, otherwise anyone could 1CC a game like Donpatchi if they downloaded a FAQ and put the time in.

You wanna know why shmups aren't going to make a comeback? Too few people get what they're about. Just read through this thread for loads of examples (including the OP.)

[James8BitStar]

but this is America of course; Land of the "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality,

That mentality is pretty damn universal dude. It's not just America.

Personally, I think the problem is people think they need to BEAT every game they play. When I play a shooter its not to seriously play it... its a quick fix, a break from the normally slower and more heady genres like the RPG. If I get addicted to it, whoopee. But its not gonna be my life and I'm not gonna kill myself if I can't get past level eight.

That being said shooters are probably niche because there just isn't a lot you can do with the genre, so they might get very repetitive after awhile.

[Flack]

Most people are turned off by the high difficulty

Says who? Is this a fact or did you make this up? Sources?

[most people are] turned off by the length because they'll blow through the entire game in 30 minutes.

Says who? Is this a fact or did you make this up? Sources?

most shmups get bad reviews because of one or both

Says who? Is this a fact or did you make this up? Sources?

[Captain Wrong]

Says who? Is this a fact or did you make this up? Sources?



Says who? Is this a fact or did you make this up? Sources?



Says who? Is this a fact or did you make this up? Sources?

The more I read the OP, the more my head hurts.

[TonyTheTiger]

I'm really confuesed here. If you have unlimited continues and no difficulity, when have shmups ever been more than a 20 minute game? These are arcade games, after all. They are designed to be quarter munchers. Always have been.

Exactly. So where's the logic in making them virtually unbeatable if you don't know the exact location to be at the precise second the 1,000,000 shots are fired? Listen, I play shoot-em-ups as much as the next guy and I make sure to buy all the greats and not so greats but fact of the matter is they use an archaic style of difficulty. It's like how Dragon Quest insists on making you return to town to resurrect a party member.

Memorization a new thing? Umm...ever played R-Type? "It becomes a game where success is based on practice through repetition. A game about perpetually learning the game." Yeah, that pretty much nails the genre for as long as I've been playing 'em. You play until you die and hopefully learn from your mistakes next time.

Since when did I say this is a new thing? But you are completely wrong that route memorization is a facet of the genre as a whole. U.N. Squadron, Abadox, Gradius and Lifeforce (to a point), Raystorm, the old 1941s and similar...Star Fox if you want to count it... These games all allow for that "twitch" play but they don't feature 98% of the screen covered in stuff that kills you. Imagine playing Super Mario Bros. where there were no less than 100 Bullet Bills flying through at any given moment. It's kind of the same idea. It's nice to be able to...if not think...at least anticipate what's going to happen or have some kind of defense beyond "be in the right place."

I think a lot of you are looking for something in the genre that was never there and isn't supposed to be. Shmups as I've played them (and as pretty much everyone else I known to play them has played them) has been a quest to improve your score and get a 1CC. That's not supposed to be easy and there's going to be a lot of trial and error (heavy on the error) to get there.

And that's fine. I'm not saying there's no room for the R-Types of the world. But you'd think someone would think outside the box a bit and revitalize the genre. If SNK can redraw Terry Bogard after how many years then anything is possible.

That's not skill? Whew, you all are a tough crowd. I've yet to 1CC any shmup (at least on default settings) and I consider myself a pretty big fan. Sorry, there's lot more than just memorization to these things, otherwise anyone could 1CC a game like Donpatchi if they downloaded a FAQ and put the time in.

It's a different kind of skill. Photographic memory. Intensely precise muscle control. There's a whole range of potential skill the genre is currently ignoring.

You wanna know why shmups aren't going to make a comeback? Too few people get what they're about. Just read through this thread for loads of examples (including the OP.)

They're about shooting stuff because it's fun to shoot stuff. I don't think there was ever anything beyond that.