This is a great topic I found accidentally while searching for something else. While I love my 7800, I can't see how anyone can seriously debate this. A better question would be "Would the original SMB be possible on the 7800?" Even with that question, I still say no. The fast scrolling and fast-paced action, pastel colors, and music don't seem possible. However, if someone makes a homebrew and proves me wrong, I'd be happy to admit it.
Your reply can't be taken serious if you don't look beyond what was actually produced for the 7800. This thread is about speculation on what might've been had the 7800 had the financial and human resources behind it that the Famicom/NES enjoyed. It's not a thread for someone to quickly compare the 7800 library with the NES library and then state, no, it couldn't be done.
Atari focused on things like arcade ports from the early 80s, they never went beyond 1984 for the most part with this console. And cartridges were always as cheaply produced as possible, with minimum amounts of memory. It's a miracle there were even two titles released that had a POKEY sound chip.
And after the first round of titles that was produced before the home division was sold and the console was temporarily shelved, the console never had top programming talent or even development teams the size of anything on the NES side. They were still largely being programmed by teams of just a handful of individuals, unlike most top NES titles. Games were being developed as if it was still the early 1980s, rather than the late 1980s in a era where games were becoming far more advanced.
I'd say if you compared the 7800 with the Famicom during it's early days, they compare very well. Sadly, Atari never took it further, prefering to use the 7800 as a cash cow to gleen profits off consumers that couldn't afford a NES, with the minimum financial investment possible. And there was little 3rd party support to help further the console along.
In other words, they never pushed the system. Imagine the NES without the advanced multi-memory controllers like the MMC3 that made things like Super Mario Brothers 3 possible, battery backup saves, all that 3rd party development, etc. Most NES favorites that are well remembered and are used as a basis for comparison today used special chips designed to extend the capabilities of the NES and make it possible for NES titles that were far more advanced than the original console could offer. The 7800 had nothing of that.
Sadly, Atari never even pushed the 7800's basic capabilities. We can just speculate what might've been had Atari been able to push the console to it's limits, and even extended those limits when necessary through creative cartridge solutions, such as what Nintendo routinely did throughout the NES and SuperNes eras.
You can't know what was possible when they never even tried. Technical specifications (In some aspects, the console is actually more powerful), certain gems in the 7800 library, and even incomplete titles like Rescue on Fractalus, suggest far more could've been achieved from the 7800.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting the Atari 7800 could've had something like Super Mario Bros. 3 developed for it. What I am suggesting is that we'll never know because the console never even came close to being pushed to it's limits, and that perhaps efforts on par with many of the more advanced efforts we witnessed on the NES might've been possible had it been on a more equal footing with the NES.
Last edited by Leo_A; 12-08-2009 at 06:21 PM.
It amazes me when people talk badly about the 7800's scrolling capabilities but nobody ever brings up Scrapyard Dog, a game that has perfectly fine scrolling and graphics more complex than SMB 1.
This was a Tramiel thing. Everything had to be cheap, cheap, cheap. I think he had the right idea for hardware (C64 and to a lesser extent Atari ST worked out well), but he had no idea how to manage a game company.Originally Posted by Leo_Ames
You could even go further and argue that Tramiel didn't even want the 7800 and had no intention of really supporting it at all. After all, he had wanted to buy only the computer aspect of Atari, but they'd only sell him the entire computer and console division. So the 7800 just got thrown out there unceremoniously.
Then again, that explanation doesn't make sense when you think about Atari's later failings, but I'm not sure when Sam Tramiel took over.
There is a scrolling demo for the Atari 7800. It is found at http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic...st__p__1884122 .
The Megaman style demo that features scrolling. Since the demo shows the Atari 7800 is capable of Megaman game, it means it is capable of Super Mario Brothers besides Scrapyard Dog.
Scrapyard Dog is the only scrolling platform game for the Atari 7800 that isn't a demo.
The 7800 did Mario 3, it was called Scrapyard Dog.
vs.
#vbender
Looks a bit one-dimensional. Kind of like Mario Bros. without the platforms (or the Bros.). There any cloud cover or platforms later in that game? I'm interested in seeing more, don't get me wrong.
Looking back at my '07 post (the previous last one in the thread lol) I wonder if the game over screen in Midnight Monsters isn't a different resolution mode than in gameplay. Possibly a slow highres and high-color mode (if the 7800 had such a thing).
It is possible that Scrapyard Dog didn't show all the potential doing a Super Mario Bros. style game. The Atari 7800 didn't exactly have great programmers back in the day like the person that did Karateka, Hat Trick, and Choplifter!. The homebrew games done for the Atari 7800 are better than a lot of the games released back in the day. I think we might better off not to judge if the Atari 7800 is capable of Super Mario 3 until a 2nd scrolling Atari 7800 platform game is being worked on.
There has been homebrew games for the Atari 7800 that has Scrolling and are great games. That means a Super Mario Bros. style game isn't out of the question for a homebrew game. The homebrew games that has scrolling are the following:
Jr. Pac-man - it is released in Cartridge form.
Apple Snaffle - found at http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic...birthday-game/
Failsafe - Countermeasure sequel that is a work in progress and has the scrolling. Information on it is found at http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic...safe-7800-wip/ .
It is possible to see a homebrew Super Mario bros. style game for the Atari 7800 down sometime down the road. If a such a game will be worked on, it is likely to come from GroovyBee or Propane13. The only way PacManPlus could do a Super Mario bros. style game is if he does Pac-Land.
PacManPlus is doing a sequel to countermeasure, but he usually does arcade ports since he likes doing arcade ports.
Propane13 is doing Arkanoid, he did a scrolling demo prior to that. Propane 13
might do some more homebrew Atari 7800 games that aren't arcade ports like GroovyBee does.
Last edited by 7th lutz; 12-08-2009 at 10:47 PM.
Let me ask, why are people bumping up "x system vs. NES!" threads lately? C'mon, don't fuel the fire guys.
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Threads like this make the baby Jesus cry. Don't get me wrong, I love the Atari 7800 and all that noise, but c'mon...
<skaar> Let's triforce our dicks
the upper limits of the 7800 were never reached and they never will be. can smb3 be recreated on the 7800? likely no... BUT had the 7800 been 100% exploited, it likely could've produced a game that the NES could not replicate.
Considering there was an HK attempt to port SMB3 to the B&W Game Boy, sure, it would be at least vaguely possible to put something vaguely like SMB3 on the 7800. Mind you, that GB port was pretty pathetic.
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." --Bertrand Russel (attributed)
Does anyone have any picture or video of what is considered to be the most exceptional graphics on the A7800? I have always been curious to see what that thing could chug out but Google failed to help me find anything.
DERP
And you know they'll never be reached how? Considering the growing homebrew scene for the 7800, I don't think I'd doubt that as a possibility.
My collection
Ballblazer is a pretty game on the 7800, and has exceptional sound thanks to its onboard POKEY chip. Alien Brigade, Commando, and Ninja Golf are also fairly impressive.
<skaar> Let's triforce our dicks
While the base hardware may be fully exploited by homebrewers at some point, I can't imagine someone sitting down and designing mappers and stuff like that. If they are, the system options are endless. I suppose one could do some crazy magic with fpga's. Anyone up for making a 7800 3D board?
Mind, I am only referring to possibilities, not what made it to market or would have likely made it to market given more $$$ support,etc.
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There is one game that was made for both systems that, in Nintendo's case, didn't use any additional hardware: Donkey Kong. If the 7800 version didn't carry any chips, we can make a reasonable comparison between the base systems.
right, the homebrew scene rarely goes beyond a single person programming a game. to exploit the 7800 to the degree the famicom was exploited, you would need a team of programmers and hardware designers and a sizeable budget. i cant see anyone taking up a project with the size and scope of say pier solar (see their mixed results on a much bigger platform) for the 7800.
and in the end im fine with that. fact is, the 7800 is open enough that there are good homebrews being released for it. the NES homebrew scene by comparison is pretty lacking.
The custom mappers in games like SMB3 are essentially just MMU's to give the NES access to more memory and blitters to help it scroll data around in the video memory without using the CPU, right? The MMU part is easy, that can be done with a couple of 10 cent 74xx series chips and expand memory out to a megabyte. The blitter part would be more difficult. Does anybody know if the bus in the 7800 even allows for DMA?
The 7800 was fun but it's so very niche. It's not exactly hanging on a limb to doubt there'd ever be enough critical mass to get the software to the pinnacle of what the system could do.
I will say that if the 7800 was as popular as the NES was then you'd have seen some amazing things out of it. They'd've been adding chips to carts to push the hardware too, no doubt about it.
Time will be when the broadest river dries
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Into the dust, for all things have an end
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