Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoboy
Nintendo seems to be sticking to their kiddie mantra.
Last time I checked, only one of those titles was published by Nintendo.Originally Posted by Rob2600
Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoboy
Nintendo seems to be sticking to their kiddie mantra.
Last time I checked, only one of those titles was published by Nintendo.
I disagree, both with the idea that it takes "MAJOR" innovation to utilize the controller and that only Nintendo is utilizing it. There's a distinction to be made between using the Wii controller well, and making particularly innovative/interesting use of it. I am not suggesting that the latter will ever be a hugely widespread occurrence. I am only suggesting that the Wii controller is suitable for a great many number of games, and that the number of games it's not suitable for is balanced out by the number of games it is uniquely (or semi-uniquely) suitable for.
Well, okay. You can play anything with the Wii controller too. But sometimes it sucks. Likewise with a d-pad. Light gun games with a d-pad suck every bit as much as using the Wii controller with a genre ill-suited to it.Because I don't need any of those to play a platformer, shmup, fighting game, etc., though it makes them play better. True, they enhance the experience, but the games that support them aren't totally unplayable without them. I can play games in any of the genres you listed with a D-pad.
Also, I don't see what's wrong with playing a platformer on the Wii. Assuming you mean 3D platformers, all you need is an analog stick and a few buttons. The Wii controller has that.
No, I'm saying that separate controllers won't be as necessary as you seem to think, and that there is nothing inherent about the Wii controller that means it can't be the "regular" control pad.You're automatically assuming that if MS becomes the norm, they'll include separate control schemes for all games for those who want to use a regular control pad?
Maybe that's because dance pads are made for DDR and light guns are for light gun games? I don't understand where you're going with this.I don't need a dance pad to play a platformer or a light gun to play Contra.
Well, not exactly. Motion-sensing is just part of the Wii controller. Not every single game has to have motion sensing in it just because the controller does. Not all games -- not even very many games -- use every single button and every single feature of the controller that they use. Motion sensing is a nice option, but it's still just an option.I'd have to use MS for all genres if it were the standard controller included with every hardware, and right now that just doesn't work.
Fighting games are definitely a very bad fit for the Wii controller. I agree. But I think it is, at worst, an even trade-off.You use two games that require special controllers as examples? Samba is a natural fit for the Wii, but is Street Fighter? Raiden? Can you imagine playing a fighting game for extended periods with the Wii controller?
No, we're not. The Wii controller still has a d-pad, an analog stick, and some buttons. You're not removing that much stuff.Look, it's still quite early to judge, but we're not looking at shoulder buttons or an analog stick here. We're talking about totally replacing the existing control scheme with something completely different.
The sixaxis only has nominal motion sensing. It doesn't have the "pointer" abilities of the Wii, it doesn't have a shape that is conducive to holding it in different ways, and I don't think (although I could be wrong) that its motion sensing is accurate enough for something like Wii Sports tennis.Until the technology is there to allow people to use it with every game without thinking that it would be better with a regular controller, it won't become the standard. I think the next logical step would be something like the Sixaxis. You have both included, and one isn't totally replacing the other.
MP3 was okay. I just think the Metroid games belong in 2-D. Now that the Metroid games are in 3-D, the pacing seems alot slower. And the emphasis on exploration isn't as previlant as they were in 2-D.
Zelda - totally forgot about Zelda. It was another Okay game. But as I said, I'm just sick of the first party Nintendo franchises. I returned Super Paper Mario, 2 days after I bought it.
The Wii has only 2 games coming out soon, I'm looking forward too. And SMG is one of them. The other is NiGHTS. My only fear is that SMG will be alot like Mario 64, which I absolutely loathed. And I've lost almost all hope in Sega, so I'm hesitant of NiGHTS, as well..
And look at this upcoming release list - tell me it doesn't scream "kiddie".
10/22 EA Playground
10/22 The Sims 2: Castaway
10/23 Hannah Montana: Spotlight Worl...
10/23 Namco Museum Remix
10/23 Naruto: Clash of Ninja Revolution
10/23 Nicktoons: Attack of the Toybots
10/23 Sea Monsters: A Prehistoric Ad...
10/23 Zack & Wiki: Quest for Barbaro...
10/26 Offroad Extreme Special Edition
10/28 Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock
Guitar Hero 3 (which I will be buying for my 360) is the only mature game on that list. I mean seriously... that list is just plain sad.
Your list was by release date, here is an alphabetical one. People will argue the term kiddie, so I will just say it screams E-rated, which isn't a bad thing, it all depends on the person and the kind of games they enjoy.
Upcoming wii "exclusives" as of july when the list was published, A through C.
Action Girlz Racing - rated E
Agatha Christie - rated E
Alien syndrome - rated T
Animal Crossing Wii - most likely E
Anubis II - Rated E
Arctic Tale - Rated E
BWii: Battalion Wars 2 - Teen
Balls of Fury - Rated E
Billy the Wizard - Take a guess
Blast Works: Build, Fuse & Destroy - Rated E
Bleach: Shattered Blade - Rated E
Bob Ross: The Joy of Painting - Tough call on this one
Boogie - Rated E
Carnival Games - Rated E
Chocobo's Dungeon - Most Likely E
Cosmic Family - Rated E
Counter Force - Rated E
Cruis'n - Rated E
Although they may be rated E, I don't think The Sims 2: Castaway or Namco Museum Remix qualify as kiddie. The Sims franchise has been hugely successful, and mostly with adults. Only old fogies, Gen-X'ers, and twenty somethings care about stuff like Namco Museum.
Just because something doesn't contain "mature content", doesn't mean children are its main audience.
The biggest drawback, and the reason why I think MS control will never take off in the way some people in this thread think it will, is simply because of muscle fatigue. Nobody wants to be uncomfortable gaming, and that's simply what happens when you try and play the Wii for long stretches of time.
your- possessive; "Is that your video game?"
you're- contraction; you are: "Just because you hate on Mac users doesn't mean you're cool."
Actually, you're the only one saying that. So you're arguing about nothing.
The Sixaxis MS scheme is a failure bceause you need a split controller like Nintendo has. All those Marble Madness type control schemes (like the one in Lair and countless Wii shovelware) are inherently failures. Aside from the fact that the controls are twitchy, the way you hold the Wii remote or Sixaxis are inherently limiting, because you need to be able to hold the controller in a natural position and twist your wrist. The Wii remote make you hold it palm up and the Sixaxis makes you hold it with two hands. If the Wii remote were held like the Nunchuk, it could work.
If the Wii is too much for you maybe you need to get outside more often. Waving your arms around, specially the small amount the Wii requires, isn't all that tiring.
On topic: Not surprised the 360 pulled ahead with Halo. Not so sure the Wii can retake the lead with it's current line-up. This will be an interesting Christmas for sure. 'Cept for the PS3.
If a 27K difference is all MS can do with Halo3, then the Wii will rule this Christmas going away. Supply will be the only factor here.
The Wii is like a blockbuster movie in a multiplex -- when it's sold out and people can't get tickets, they end up watching other movies. If you can't get a Wii, then you will have to settle for a 360 or PS3, and I sort of think that Ratchet & Clank is more appealing to the people who want a Wii than Halo3, plus the BluRay player might be the difference maker.
Now, I love the Wii. I don't own a 360 or a PS3. But I'm going to say that if someone can't get a Wii, they're not going to pay hundreds of dollars to "settle" on something else. A $10 movie ticket is one thing, a new system is completely different. Plus I don't think people were at the store thinking "I can't get a Wii to play Wii Sports? Hell, then I guess I'll have to settle for this 'Halo 3' garbage. What a waste!"
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I agree, but until motion sensor becomes suitable for more than just some games, it won't eliminate the standard controller as the first option developers go to.
Someone questioned why I think it has to be "all or nothing," but it really isn't me making that statement. Nintendo did so when it made the Wiimote it's standard controller for the Wii. By severely reducing the amount of buttons on the Wiimote (a D-pad and two face buttons are all you get), it was basically telling developers make or adapt their games to use the motion sensor, because it's impossible to port a game over to the Wii without making major changes to the standard control set up. "Ah, but you can always use the Classic Controller!" you say. Well, again, Nintendo is telling you that if you want a traditional set up, you have to buy an extra controller - their controller - to do so. So developers either use the motion sensor, cripple their control scheme, or force customers to buy an extra controller. THAT'S why it's all or nothing.
I think the token use of motion sensor outside of Nintendo really shows how reluctant the industry is to adapt it. Personally - and this is the main point I'm trying to make - I think that MS could become the standard in the future, once the technology is developed enough to make it useful with all types of games. So long as developers are given the crutch of traditional control schemes, you can't expect MS to become the norm.
BTW, what other companies outside of Nintendo itself are pushing ahead with innovative use of the Wiimote? So far it's only been a tacked-on afterthought for most 3rd parties.
That's my whole point. Motion sensor isn't going to work with everything (can you see yourself playing a twitch shmup with it?), so developers are going to have to offer the traditional set up. So long as you keep having to go back to that, MS will never truly break free as the standard. All I'm saying is that we're still quite a ways off from it happening.Well, okay. You can play anything with the Wii controller too. But sometimes it sucks. Likewise with a d-pad. Light gun games with a d-pad suck every bit as much as using the Wii controller with a genre ill-suited to it.
You don't think that the fact that there are still many types of games with which the Wii controller doesn't work well means that it isn't ready to be the "regular" type of controller future console will include?No, I'm saying that separate controllers won't be as necessary as you seem to think, and that there is nothing inherent about the Wii controller that means it can't be the "regular" control pad.
Using a shoulder button isn't the same as having someone hold a motion sensor. This is the problem I have with the whole Wiimote thing. People laud it as immensely innovative, then show a buttload of examples where it's not needed or doesn't work. That only gives the impression that it's a cool gimmick, but not something that's ready to sweep the whole industry. It's either innovative or it's not. The whole "it's only innovative when it needs to be" argument seems like moving the goal posts to me.Well, not exactly. Motion-sensing is just part of the Wii controller. Not every single game has to have motion sensing in it just because the controller does. Not all games -- not even very many games -- use every single button and every single feature of the controller that they use. Motion sensing is a nice option, but it's still just an option.
I'm sure many fighting fans would be hesitant to buy a fighting game that only used motion sensor control. Heck, Smash Bros. Brawl shows that not even Nintendo is sure that it will be embraced by fighting fans. The fact that the majority of the control schemes are for traditional controls (even the Wavebird!) says a lot.Fighting games are definitely a very bad fit for the Wii controller. I agree. But I think it is, at worst, an even trade-off.
Then we're not being really innovative. Honestly, if you're going to still include everything a traditional controller has and say that not all games have to use it, how can it become the standard?No, we're not. The Wii controller still has a d-pad, an analog stick, and some buttons. You're not removing that much stuff.
True, but I meant that the next step will probably be a refined version of this and not a pointer/sensor. Unless we see some major use of it, the Wiimote-type of control doesn't look like it's going to replace anything.The sixaxis only has nominal motion sensing. It doesn't have the "pointer" abilities of the Wii, it doesn't have a shape that is conducive to holding it in different ways, and I don't think (although I could be wrong) that its motion sensing is accurate enough for something like Wii Sports tennis.
Um, I was answering a point brought up by several people in this thread, including you.
Last edited by Melf; 10-22-2007 at 12:07 PM.
You may want to rework that inaccurate, fanboy-inspired comparison. If the movie I wanted to see that would cost me $10 were sold out, I would not pay $20 to watch a movie I did not want to see.
People want the Wii for a reason, they are not going to "settle" for any system, especially when it is not the one they want and way more expensive. Besides, if they want it, they can get it. This is not the dark ages where people only had one store that would sell them these things.
If you disagree with my analogy, fine, but I have no idea why you labelled it fanboyism.
As is the nature of all analogies, they are only meant to illustrate a point -- there is no real purpose is stretching it further than what it is.
I still don't get the fanboyism charge. Is that PS3, Wii, or 260 fanboyism?
Alien Syndrome, I have...... You wanna talk about an awful game!!?? AS is a prime example of why I am slowly losing faith in Sega. The gameplay is ultra-repetitive, and downright dull. To add insult to injury, they didn't even include the original arcade game as an unlockable.
And J_Factor, you make a good point about the Namco Classics, but since I already own Galaga and Pac-Man arcade machines, and have the Namco 50th Anniversary collection on the first Xbox, and half of the Namco lineup on XBLA, I'd be a waste of money to buy yet another copy (unless they include online multiplayer modes). The Sims on the other hand.... I just don't enjoy the Sims franchise. If it was Sim CITY, now that's a different story, all together. I love me some Sim City. Speaking of the Sims series of games, I'd be all over Sim Earth when it comes out on the VC - I used to play the hell out of that game before my SNES was stolen.
The rest of the list looks like either the Nickelodeon or Cartoon Network lineup.
That Bob Ross game could be interesting, though... And yes, I'm serious about that statement. I really admired Bob Ross... He was an amazing painter, even thought he sounded like he was on qualiudes, half the time.
Batallion Wars 2 - I'm up in the air on that one... Haven't heard much about it.
Last edited by diskoboy; 10-22-2007 at 02:08 PM.
You're really reaching on the shoulder buttons and d-pad bits. Functionally both of those are wildly different. And the only pre-NES consoles with analogue sticks were the 5200, that arcadia clone, and vectrex. Let's face it, none of those really made any sort of impact, and barely used the analogue stick for anything anyway.
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The d-pad is not a round iPod-like disk that the INTV had. It is completely different. The analog self centering stick was only used on Vecrex, and not with a d-pad combo. 5200's side buttons are like top shoulder buttons? Come on now, get serious, they're as different as night and day.
I honestly think the Wii controller is suitable for most games. Really, fighting games are the only big exception IMO. I might even go so far as to say that the Wii controller is suitable for more types of games than the PS2 (or whatever) controller. The Wii controller is quite versatile IMO.
The standard Wii controller is the Wiimote with Nunchuk. That's what you get in the box when you buy a Wii. I don't know of any Wii games going out of their way to force Wiimote-only controls when it's not suitable; the only games that use the Wiimote without the Nunchuk are games that are more conducive to that kind of control.Someone questioned why I think it has to be "all or nothing," but it really isn't me making that statement. Nintendo did so when it made the Wiimote it's standard controller for the Wii. By severely reducing the amount of buttons on the Wiimote (a D-pad and two face buttons are all you get), it was basically telling developers make or adapt their games to use the motion sensor, because it's impossible to port a game over to the Wii without making major changes to the standard control set up.
The Classic Controller, to me, is a non-issue. Although it can be used in Wii games, that's not something I've been giving consideration to in this conversation."Ah, but you can always use the Classic Controller!" you say. Well, again, Nintendo is telling you that if you want a traditional set up, you have to buy an extra controller - their controller - to do so. So developers either use the motion sensor, cripple their control scheme, or force customers to buy an extra controller. THAT'S why it's all or nothing.
I disagree entirely that using the standard Wii controller requires a crippling of the control scheme in many cases. Most games seem to be adapting just fine.
All the references to MS becoming "the norm" are only claiming that MS technology will be included as standard with the major consoles next gen. Not necessarily that the motion-sensing itself will be the core part of how most games are controlled.I think the token use of motion sensor outside of Nintendo really shows how reluctant the industry is to adapt it. Personally - and this is the main point I'm trying to make - I think that MS could become the standard in the future, once the technology is developed enough to make it useful with all types of games. So long as developers are given the crutch of traditional control schemes, you can't expect MS to become the norm.
Innovation, by definition, isn't something that will happen with a majority of cases. And it doesn't need to. All I'm saying is that the Wii controller will work fine for most games. Not that everything it touches turns to gold. I think you're setting an arbitrarily high bar. Of course games are still going to exist that don't really need motion sensing.BTW, what other companies outside of Nintendo itself are pushing ahead with innovative use of the Wiimote? So far it's only been a tacked-on afterthought for most 3rd parties.
I disagree with the presupposition in this question. I don't think it's a fact that there are still many types of games with which the Wii controller doesn't work well. I certainly don't think it outnumbers the types of games with which the PS2 controller doesn't work well. It's just that the specific types are different. Types of games that you're used to working fine with a standard controller no longer do, and types of games that you're used to not working fine with a standard controller now do.You don't think that the fact that there are still many types of games with which the Wii controller doesn't work well means that it isn't ready to be the "regular" type of controller future console will include?
What I said was this: "There's a distinction to be made between using the Wii controller well, and making particularly innovative/interesting use of it. I am not suggesting that the latter will ever be a hugely widespread occurrence. I am only suggesting that the Wii controller is suitable for a great many number of games"Using a shoulder button isn't the same as having someone hold a motion sensor. This is the problem I have with the whole Wiimote thing. People laud it as immensely innovative, then show a buttload of examples where it's not needed or doesn't work. That only gives the impression that it's a cool gimmick, but not something that's ready to sweep the whole industry. It's either innovative or it's not. The whole "it's only innovative when it needs to be" argument seems like moving the goal posts to me.
The controller itself is innovative, yes. But it doesn't necessarily require innovation on the part of every developer to utilize. It opens the door for new possibilities, but it doesn't mean every single game has to go to that length.
This is no different from, for example, the addition of analog control. They still included everything a traditional controller had, and said that not all games had to use it. By all accounts analog became standard. I also don't recall people bitching about third parties not being all that innovative with it.Then we're not being really innovative. Honestly, if you're going to still include everything a traditional controller has and say that not all games have to use it, how can it become the standard?
I think you're arguing in two different directions. On the one hand, you're saying that the Wii controller is too different, but then on the other, you're saying that it's not different enough. Innovation will never be the standard. If something is standard it's no longer innovative.
Note also that I haven't argued for innovation; you're the only one using that word. My argument (well, the proposition for which I am arguing) is that the Wii controller is at least as versatile as any other, and possibly moreso. Most types of games can work fine on the Wii controller.
I wasn't telling you to buy those games. I was just saying that they're not kiddie. Personally, I don't give a damn about The Sims either. Namco Museum Remix actually isn't another copy of previous Namco Museum releases; it includes unique remakes designed around the Wii controller. So instead of emulating Rally-X, it has a new game based on Rally-X. I'm actually looking forward to it.
Thanks for calling me unathletic. Preciate it. Maybe you should tell that to the tennis players that get tennis elbow, or the typists who get carpal tunnel. Just get outside more! Jeez.
Muscle fatigue is different than being tired. It can occur any time you repeat a single movement over and over again. I tend to game in marathon sessions on the weekends, logging in six or seven hours in day sometimes. It's not a big deal when you're sprawled on the couch pressing buttons on a controller, but if you're forced to play a game where you have to keep your arms up and pointed at the screen for that amount of time, you're going to be sore.
your- possessive; "Is that your video game?"
you're- contraction; you are: "Just because you hate on Mac users doesn't mean you're cool."
The only argument I'm making about motion sensor is that I think the technology, while full of potential, isn't ready to become the industry standard. In regards to the Wiimote's innovation, it seems, to me at least, that those arguing in favor of the Wiimote are the ones who have been going in two different directions. It's lauded as highly innovative and ground-breaking, and some people in this very thread have said that it could lead to MS controls becoming the norm, but whenever someone questions its use with different types of games it's reduced to merely an option that isn't forced on anyone.
That seems to have been the general tone with the Wii since it launched. Every month, someone trots out the latest NPD hardware sales numbers to show how the Wii is trouncing the PS3 and 360, but whenever someone questions the library or the lack of major 3rd party titles, they say that Nintendo's shooting for a different market and a different demographic. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The same goes for the Wiimote. Either it's an innovation that's changing things, or it's just another option that you don't have to use. That would reduce it, in my eyes, to something like rumble. You don't need rumble, and omitting it doesn't affect the game at all. Just about every major Wii title not made by Nintendo (and some even made by them, like the new Smash Bros.) are offerering control alternatives with the standard set up. Even NIGHTS 2, a game you'd think would be made ground up for the Wiimote, is going to include the option to use the Classic Controller. How can Nintendo expect anyone to think of MS as anything other than a fad if developers keep offering reasons for players not to use it? So far, the only games that really need it are a relative minority, like the light gun and rhythm games you mentioned. Before we can even talk about MS becoming the standard, which is a point brought up by others here first, not by me, it needs to first become the standard on the very console that introduced it!
What I'm saying is that the Wiimote is decidedly different, but not quite ready to replace the traditional controller. It's a big change, sure, but it hasn't quite won over the development community so far, as we've seen by it's token implementation in games made by everyone but Nintendo. To me, Nintendo seems to be trying to push the bar again, and the fact that it severely reduced the amount of buttons on the stock Wiimote and sells a full traditional controller separately shows how it's trying to discourage developers from relying on the standard control scheme. It's still letting developers rely too much on it though. Unfortunately, as long as this crutch is around, it's going to be used. There's not really much it can do about it though. It can't force anyone to embrace MS, and unless a change comes quick, I think you're going to see its impact severely reduced.
People, especially Nintendo itself, have been touting the Wiimote as "innovative" since before the system even launched. It's not my word.Note also that I haven't argued for innovation; you're the only one using that word. My argument (well, the proposition for which I am arguing) is that the Wii controller is at least as versatile as any other, and possibly moreso. Most types of games can work fine on the Wii controller.
Last edited by Melf; 10-23-2007 at 09:14 AM.
...So then we agree? Rumble is pretty standard. Since it was introduced on N64, it was soon offered on Playstation, and then every console after that had rumble at launch. Except PS3, and there was a huge stink about its lack of rumble, and now a rumble controller is coming.
Rumble is standard and it's almost always used, even when it's not really "necessary" for the game. That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying will happen (or is already happening, even) with Wii controls.
That's true. But it's also true that the only games that need to not have it are a relatively small minority. Which is my main point. Most games can work fine with the Wii controller even if they don't "need" it.So far, the only games that really need it are a relative minority, like the light gun and rhythm games you mentioned.
Not every DS game uses the touchscreen, and not every game that does use touchscreen control needs to, or is even particularly better because of it. But I never heard such complaints about the DS touchscreen.
It is the standard, by virtue of the fact that it's the only controller packed with the system, and virtually every game is compatible with it. You seem to be arguing the word "standard" on a game implementation basis. What was meant by saying that motion-sensing controllers would become "standard" was merely a prediction that it would be included with the major consoles of the next generation. It's just a prediction, and not really based on the merits of motion sensing control.Before we can even talk about MS becoming the standard, which is a point brought up by others here first, not by me, it needs to first become the standard on the very console that introduced it!
I've been intentionally silent on this point because I've felt it opens a whole different can of worms. But since you keep bringing it up, I'll say it: I don't think Nintendo's the only company implementing the unique aspects of the Wii controller in more than a token sense. There may be a glut of lazy ports but they're not all that exists.What I'm saying is that the Wiimote is decidedly different, but not quite ready to replace the traditional controller. It's a big change, sure, but it hasn't quite won over the development community so far, as we've seen by it's token implementation in games made by everyone but Nintendo.
So when analog sticks were introduced, they should've removed d-pads from controllers at the same time?To me, Nintendo seems to be trying to push the bar again, and the fact that it severely reduced the amount of buttons on the stock Wiimote and sells a full traditional controller separately shows how it's trying to discourage developers from relying on the standard control scheme. It's still letting developers rely too much on it though. Unfortunately, as long as this crutch is around, it's going to be used.
No, it's not your word, but it's a subject that only you are arguing about. "Innovativeness" is simply not what I'm talking about. In fact, my initial comment that spurned this argument was that I disagree with the idea that innovation is necessary. The level of innovation that is or isn't there, is irrelevant to my disagreement.People, especially Nintendo itself, have been touting the Wiimote as "innovative" since before the system even launched. It's not my word.
Last edited by j_factor; 10-24-2007 at 02:44 AM.
If the Wii is too much for you maybe you need to get outside more often. Waving your arms around, specially the small amount the Wii requires, isn't all that tiring.
Thanks for calling me unathletic. Preciate it. Maybe you should tell that to the tennis players that get tennis elbow, or the typists who get carpal tunnel. Just get outside more! Jeez.
Muscle fatigue is different than being tired. It can occur any time you repeat a single movement over and over again. I tend to game in marathon sessions on the weekends, logging in six or seven hours in day sometimes. It's not a big deal when you're sprawled on the couch pressing buttons on a controller, but if you're forced to play a game where you have to keep your arms up and pointed at the screen for that amount of time, you're going to be sore.
And you're a mod? Pathetic.
your- possessive; "Is that your video game?"
you're- contraction; you are: "Just because you hate on Mac users doesn't mean you're cool."
Who's a mod? And even if I was it wouldn't change the fact that you need to get outside more often. Waving your arms around, specially the small amount the Wii requires, isn't all that tiring.
Battalion Wars 2, Super Smash Brothers Melee, Fire Emblem Wii, and Super Mario Galaxy all say hi!
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