Master System better than the Nes & 7800

[old_skoolin_jim]

I'd also like to add in the SMS port of Ultima 4 is far more faithful than the NES version. Great music, too. Definitely goes toe-to-toe with PS for best RPG on the system.

[trench-a-licious]

I always thought the Master System was superior to the NES. There was something about the Master System that I loved. Yes, it was my first console, but it had all the arcade games that I really loved playing. I still have my trusty Master System which works unlike my pile of broken NES.

[Drixxel]

While I understand where you are coming from and do agree with you, this logic could also be skewed towards the nes as well, why would you bother with Metroid or Castlevania when they have much superior and similar versions(sequels) on the SNES?

I'd argue that this example doesn't really present the same situation. With the SMS, we're talking ports of games done first/better on Genesis, which in some cases would have been arcade ports to begin with, that were then reworked to fit the constraints of the SMS. On the other hand, a series like Metroid or Castlevania began with the NES and then evolved through new installments on next generation hardware. That's not to say there aren't multiplatform releases from the time that included a reworked NES port but there's a lot more "downsizing" going on in the SMS library than with the NES. Games like Zillion, Phantasy Star, or Alex Kidd In Miracle World, while dated like anything from the era, are still original SMS experiences and a lot more interesting to play today than SMS Ecco The Dolphin or any number of downsized ports that occupy a large chunk of the library.

[j_factor]

I'd argue that this example doesn't really present the same situation. With the SMS, we're talking ports of games done first/better on Genesis, which in some cases would have been arcade ports to begin with, that were then reworked to fit the constraints of the SMS. On the other hand, a series like Metroid or Castlevania began with the NES and then evolved through new installments on next generation hardware. That's not to say there aren't multiplatform releases from the time that included a reworked NES port but there's a lot more "downsizing" going on in the SMS library than with the NES. Games like Zillion, Phantasy Star, or Alex Kidd In Miracle World, while dated like anything from the era, are still original SMS experiences and a lot more interesting to play today than SMS Ecco The Dolphin or any number of downsized ports that occupy a large chunk of the library.

Thank you, this is what I was getting at. If you're a fan of Castlevania, you'll want to play it on NES too, because it's not the same game. You could argue against the first because of Castlevania Chronicles, but 2 and 3 remain unique. Likewise, Shinobi is still worth playing on SMS, because the original Shinobi was never ported to Genesis or anything else better than the SMS version (barring Amiga, which for most people just doesn't count). But there is really no reason to play the SMS version of something like Gain Ground; even if they did a pretty good job, there's just no reason to bother. An NES equivalent would be Road Blasters or Bonk's Adventure. But SMS seemed to rely more on that type of release than NES ever did.

[Emuaust]

But due to there 8-bitness a lot of sms ports are unique as well, they might be the "same game" but still fun to play through.

[spiffyone]

Oh... this discussion....

Yeah, not quite. I looked over the XM specs. The amount of ram is very unrealistic for the 7800's time. 128k of ram for a console upgrade, in the mid to late 80's? Nah-uh. This isn't a home computer. This is a console.

While I agree with you that 128k seems out of the realm of probability for Atari at the time (see my earlier post), the idea that "this is a console, not a computer" is rendered moot when you learn that the original plan for 7800 back when Warner Bros. owned Atari was for a keyboard upgrade, with RAM extension, to "upgrade" 7800 to a full fledged starter computer.

There was even a prototype of the keyboard made along with the accompanying cartridge that extended the 7800's RAM to be a more fully fleshed out computer.

Then Atari Inc. was split by Warners during the Crash, and the consumer division sold to Tramiel, who turned it to Atari Corp., and stopped most of the projects. More 7800 games under Warner would've had the Pokey chip in the cart, but Tramiel was cheaper. And that also meant no keyboard/computer expansion as originally planned.

So, in that light...XM's RAM isn't totally out of the realm of possibility, especially considering that in the mid '80s a Commodore 64 could be had for ~$200-250, and the computer keyboard add on for 7800 didn't have built in processors to add into cost. So 128k add on RAM for such a thing is somewhat within the realm of possibility. A keyboard controller with a 128k RAM cart would cost under $100, which is exactly how much the XM is going for.

That said, had it been 16k of RAM, I'd have been more comfortable with it being more "realistic" as that's how much "extra" game carts would have believably held. 64k of RAM if mimicking the computer keyboard add on. But 128k wasn't out of Warner owned Atari's realm, especially if they would've been trying to one up Commodore 64, which was beating their 400/800 line of computers.

The sound chip, however, I agree with you on. I don't like the idea of that FM chip as far as it being "true" retro.

But Atari fans don't care. It makes up for the draw backs of their beloved underdog system and allows it to surpass the competition (mainly NES). I'm not saying don't make the upgrade, make new games or patch old games, and enjoy the benefits. But I am saying don't sit there and pretend this is a realistic upgrade that would have came out back then. That's just bullshit.

Other than the FM sound chip and the amount of RAM (more realistic, IMHO, would've been at most 64k of RAM) XM is within the realm of possibility for Warner owned Atari. Especially considering the computer keyboard add on that was planned (and actually finished, but never sold).

But here's the thing about XM: no developer is forced to develop for XM. And of those that are using XM the vast majority of them are just making XM "enabled" games, not XM "exclusive" games.

The former run on stock hardware with just added routines to detect whether the High Score Cart battery back up and POKEY are there , in which case you can save your scores or get POKEY sound (the majority of devs aren't using the FM chip, actually, and I believe you can disable it and switch to POKEY and TIA sound).

A small handful of games are XM "exclusive" (meaning they use the extra RAM) but even of those the majority are not using anywhere near the full 128k, usually just using between 16-64k, which, as I stated, is fully within the realm of possibility for Atari.

So if a game is "XM enabled", don't write it off as "not the 'real' 7800" because that would be nonsense if all the dev is using out of XM is POKEY and a little bit of extra RAM that could've been on cart or on the planned computer keyboard expansion (it should be noted XM has an SIO port for a future keyboard peripheral)

[Kevincal]

i think the reason the master system didnt succeed in the usa against the nintendo was all down to marketing? i dont know but its my guess nintendo spent way more money than sega and i hate to say it but us americans seem more prone to brainwashing than most other countries, so we had it pumped in our brain how awesome the nes was and never heard much about the master system. the nes was great though, just sad most of us never had a master system. ive collected thousands of games and systems and still have never had a working master system... have roms though.

funny too, i remember in 1989 specifically telling my parents "you better not get an atari or sega, they suck compared to nintendo". and i dont know where i got this idea but i got it somewhere, brainwashed or something or i guess all the kids at school had nintendos and nobody had master system and atari was seen as old crap.

[Greg2600]

Kevin, Master System got into the US game a little late, and SEGA didn't have the budget to spend anywhere near what Nintendo was. SEGA admitted they focused more on Europe, after they saw the obstacle Nintendo had built up, until the Genesis came around. It was actually very smart by them. They didn't live or die on the SMS US sales, they just wanted a foothold, and to prove to retailers/distributors that they weren't going to screw them over like Atari. SEGA made a lot of good moves with the SMS and Genesis, they just torched their rep with a string of busts after those two.

[Rickstilwell1]

This all has me curious. Most SMS fans probably chose the Genesis the next generation and most NES fans probably chose the SNES. Is that true? In Europe do more people think Genesis is superior to SNES as well?

[sheath]

This all has me curious. Most SMS fans probably chose the Genesis the next generation and most NES fans probably chose the SNES. Is that true? In Europe do more people think Genesis is superior to SNES as well?

For me it fell to game type preferences, and the Genesis and TG16 offered the game types I wanted early. I did buy an NES between the SMS and Genesis though.

That's not trying to be dodgy at all. I think the system one owned first sort of programmed us to prefer the strongest genres that system presented.

[GroovyBee]

But here's the thing about XM: no developer is forced to develop for XM. And of those that are using XM the vast majority of them are just making XM "enabled" games, not XM "exclusive" games.

All my XM titles announced so far are XM exclusive. They won't work without it.

[Kevincal]

i actually went from NES to Genesis in 1991 / 92 because of Sonic and the Genesis was cheaper than SNES. Didn't get an SNES until 1996.

[Greg2600]

Most everyone with a new system had the NES, and most of them went to the Genesis. It seemed to me like most of the SNES kids were younger than me, and played an NES in the early 90's, and moved to SNES. As I've said many times, SEGA really flamed out towards the end of '94, due to the CD and 32X flops.

[Hawanja]

I used to agree with your sentiments, 8-bit dude. But my criteria for identifying classic games is how well they stand up over time. In my subjective opinion, the NES library has, for the most part, aged better than the SMS library. Don't get me wrong, there were a lot of great SMS games, and the games loooked better in screenshots and stills. But a lot of them look horrible in motion. If I remember, Double Dragon was pretty choppy and controlled poorly. In fact, almost anything after the first slew of SMS games look horrible in motion. Rastan looks particularly ugly these days.

I think the majority of SMS games were also pretty devoid of depth, which keeps them from being interesting today. (World Grand Prix is one of the driest games I can remember ever playing.) There are a few that really do hold up, but for me, nothing on the SMS touches the grandeur that is the Guardian Legend, Legacy of the Wizard, Metroid, Crystalis, Iron Tank, Kid Icarus, Solar Jetman, Maniac Mansion, Princess Tomato and the Salad Kingdom, Deja Vu...the list goes on. SMS only has a small handful of games of this caliber. Just my opinion.

I have to agree, the games overall were developed better on the NES. I would add Megaman, Castlevania, Gradius, Batman, Jackal, Blaster Master, Bionic Commando, Shatterhand, and the Zelda series.

As for Ninja Gaiden, it certainly looked better on the Sms, but the three NES games play far better imo.

[Brianvgplayer]

I disagree with the comments about having to play EU games to experience what makes the SMS great. While EU got more great titles, US still got more than Japan and many of the best games for it like Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap, Phantasy Star, Psycho Fox, Kenseiden, and Alex Kidd in Miracle World came to the US.

That said, NES got far more games and a wider variety of games, even counting EU SMS titles, especially counting JP Famicom games.

[kupomogli]

Like I said. The best SMS games are only as good as the "good" NES games. There are so many more NES games that are better than even the best SMS games. Europe may have got a lot of great exclusives we haven't received in the US, but that doesn't mean every game we haven't received is as good as as the best we have received.

[Brianvgplayer]

Like I said. The best SMS games are only as good as the "good" NES games. There are so many more NES games that are better than even the best SMS games.

I disagree a bit here too, though. SMS definitely has a few gems like Phantasy Star and Wonder Boy III that hold their own with the best NES games and the better titles on the system aren't below the quality of good games on other systems.

I disagree on Gain Ground as well. It has some unique levels exclusive to SMS and the bosses are unique as well. It's not as good as the Genesis version, but it still holds up well on its own.

[j_factor]

Honestly I haven't played the SMS version of Gain Ground in years and I just kind of threw it out there off-hand. It may be a bad example. Feel free to mentally replace Gain Ground with something else, say, Alien 3 or Streets of Rage or something. My point still stands.

Like I said. The best SMS games are only as good as the "good" NES games.

I don't know about that. I'll take Phantasy Star over any NES RPG.

[sheath]

I just started playing Streets of Rage on the actual Master System. This game came out after the Genesis version but has tons of merit all of its own. I suppose it is the same as the Game Gear version but I like things on the big screen.

The Music is a blend of SoR 1 and 2 tunes remixed for the SMS.
The Sprites hardly flicker at all (eat your heart out Double Dragon).
All of the moves are there, I just need to figure out how to pull a special.

It's only got two enemies on screen at once, but proves SoR 1 could have been done on the SNES.

[kupomogli]

I don't know about that. I'll take Phantasy Star over any NES RPG.

Phantasy Star is an exception to what I said as it's better than most RPGs on the NES, but I'd take Final Fantasy or Dragon Warrior 3 over it. I even like the original Final Fantasy more than most of the games in its own series.