New Game Informer. Xbox 360 Failure Rate? 54.2%

[FxMercenary]

All I can say is WOW :eek 2:

I was always told they were around 27%, but according to this, its twice as bad... I have the 20gb Launch 360, and its still working! ( aside from a few annoyances like the disk drive getting stuck upon ejection, and the noise, yes i took it apart and dusted it out several times, probably why its working still =) )

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/fxmercenary/Scan.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/fxmercenary/Scan2.jpg

[HappehLemons]

I've had 4 break down on me, I'm starting to lose count. I got my first jasper this christmas and I've had no problems with it so far.

[chicnstu]

It definitely seems accurate to me. We've seen a lot of people deny the numbers (Remember when it used to be estimated at 33%?), but that's all it felt like to me, denial because they love their 360 so much. It's hard to find someone that really knows what they are talking about (ProgrammingAce). But I trust polls more than one or a few knowledgable people. Yeah Game Informer surveyed their readers whom probably play their systems a lot, but I don't think that matters. It shows that if you put some play time into a 360 you'd have a better chance flipping a coin to decide it's fate.

[Kid Ice]

I thought it was closer to 100%. I'm not trying to be funny, I can't think of anyone I know who has only bought one system.

[The 1 2 P]

It shows that if you put some play time into a 360 you'd have a better chance flipping a coin to decide it's fate.

I have a double-sided head coin.....I make my own fate and luck8-)

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Remember that 360's aren't limited to RROD as a fatal hardware failure.

I'm on my 6th 360.

All previous 5 had hardware failures. None were RRODs.

3 A/V output failures on 3 separate launch systems (probably a bad batch), 2 DVD drive failures.

RROD is probably a very high percentage of cause of failure, but if you factor in the other hardware failures that make the system unplayable/require repairs those numbers look reasonable to me. (And of course by reasonable I mean the accuracy of the poll.)

[CelticJobber]

I've always heard the failure rate was close to 60% so this really doesn't surprise me at all.

[Rob2600]

if you factor in the other hardware failures that make the system unplayable/require repairs those numbers look reasonable to me.

As far as I've read, the average failure rate for electronics is less than 10%. A 54% failure rate should never seem reasonable.

No offense. :)

[portnoyd]

I thought it was closer to 100%. I'm not trying to be funny, I can't think of anyone I know who has only bought one system.

I'm going to doom our downstairs 360 and say... no problems. We got it in January 2006 no less.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

As far as I've read, the average failure rate for electronics is less than 10%. A 54% failure rate should never seem reasonable.

No offense. :)

lol, I meant reasonably ACCURATE numbers silly.

[heybtbm]

People whose 360's have failed are more likely to respond to a poll asking that specific question than people who haven't had one fail. I see no one at Game Informer seems to have taken a basic statistics course.

Game Informer should share the "Epic Fail" with MS (Oh, they're not off the hook either) on this one. How embarrassing for professional "journalists" to treat this as news.

[sebastiankirchoff]

I have had my 360 since September of 2006 and it hasn't had a single problem. I have spent lots of time on it and have done a lot on it, and it hasn't red ringed or anything. I have a couple of friends who had Red Ringed 360's, so I guess I am lucky.

[PapaStu]

Didn't Kotaku do one of these about a year ago, with more than 5000 responses? They didn't get 54% but in the 30's.

Either way, as shitty as it is, a MS covered program for replacement for 3 years on their biggest problems is still better than what Sony/Nintendo do/have done. I might slightly change my tune when my warranty is up in another 4 months, but I figure by then i'll finally get rid of a 360 with a Xenon board in it and get a new lesser prone to failure unit.

My first system took me a month to get back from MS (it was sent in 2 days after Xmas, and fell to the wrath of a few holidays holding it up). My second one died before the following Xmas (yes their replacement refurb) and I had my current one back in less than 2 weeks from me shipping it out. Both deaths, failed disc drives. No RRoD. Heck of all my 18004MYXBOX calls, only 1 went to India and that one was pretty damn simple (though he screwed up other stuff for later calls, but those were all dealt with by US techs).

20%....50% the number don't surprise me, nor should they to most anyone who'd read the magazine, since they have mentioned it before, would have heard about it from a GS employee when subscribing to the mag, experienced it themselves, read about it on one of the many news stories that have been around talking about it. Heck, people have been kicking around the 50-75% numbers for a long while now. Not stopping me from turning on my system tonight.

[crom]

Either way, as shitty as it is, a MS covered program for replacement for 3 years on their biggest problems is still better than what Sony/Nintendo do/have done.

microsoft only covers RROD... ive had my system repaired 2 times already, and it wasnt RROD so thank god I bought an extended warranty cause the problems I had wernt covered...

everyone I know who has a 360 has had at least one go bad...

if PS3's were close in price to a 360 I would buy one... but isnt that funny that most of us would rather buy another 360 then fork up the cash for a PS3....

[FxMercenary]

microsoft only covers RROD... ive had my system repaired 2 times already, and it wasnt RROD so thank god I bought an extended warranty cause the problems I had wernt covered...

everyone I know who has a 360 has had at least one go bad...

if PS3's were close in price to a 360 I would buy one... but isnt that funny that most of us would rather buy another 360 then fork up the cash for a PS3....

Well you're in luck then, because starting tomorrow, the price of the PS3 is dropping to $299 Dollars!!! ( Read the PS3 Slim thread. )

[crom]

Well you're in luck then, because starting tomorrow, the price of the PS3 is dropping to $299 Dollars!!! ( Read the PS3 Slim thread. )

dude... xbox 360's in canada brand new are $199...

[Snapple]

People whose 360's have failed are more likely to respond to a poll asking that specific question than people who haven't had one fail. I see no one at Game Informer seems to have taken a basic statistics course.

Game Informer should share the "Epic Fail" with MS (Oh, they're not off the hook either) on this one. How embarrassing for professional "journalists" to treat this as news.

If Game Informer fails basic statistics, then you fail basic logic.

The poll is the failure rate of all three systems. If people are more likely to answer a poll if their system does break, thus creating inflated data, then the Nintendo and Sony numbers should also be high. If 6.8% of people reported Wii failure in the poll, then what's the actual number, like 1%? 2%? Come on, bro. The difference between the hardware failure rate is beyond unacceptable, no matter how you try to skew the statistics.

[FxMercenary]

dude... xbox 360's in canada brand new are $199...

yea they are, with no HDD, no wifi, no rechargable batteries and slap an additional $50.00 price tag on there for Live... I dont care if they were $100.00, they DO NOT COMPARE

On a side note, I am looking forward to picking up an Elite GOTY bundle as soon as that pricing drops down to $249!

[PapaStu]

microsoft only covers RROD... ive had my system repaired 2 times already, and it wasnt RROD so thank god I bought an extended warranty cause the problems I had wernt covered...

everyone I know who has a 360 has had at least one go bad...

if PS3's were close in price to a 360 I would buy one... but isnt that funny that most of us would rather buy another 360 then fork up the cash for a PS3....

Oh, I know. They also cover the E-74 (or E-72, whatever error it is). I bought the extended warranty myself when I got the system. Well worth the 50 bucks especially since i've replaced mine twice as well.

[Flashback2012]

dude... xbox 360's in canada brand new are $199...

Here in the States too....for the HDD less Arcade unit. ;)

Edit: D'oh too slow with the response! :p

[crom]

yea they are, with no HDD, no wifi, no rechargable batteries and slap an additional $50.00 price tag on there for Live... I dont care if they were $100.00, they DO NOT COMPARE

dude... when 360's fail, the harddrive and the controllers dont just melt away...

you just stick your old harddrive into the new one...

[crom]

what gets me is... if the ps3 was comparable earlier in its life to the price of a 360, everyone who had to buy another 360 would have bought a ps3 instead...

I know I would have...

[FxMercenary]

dude... when 360's fail, the harddrive and the controllers dont just melt away...

you just stick your old harddrive into the new one...

thats assuming you already owned one...

[Rob2600]

lol, I meant reasonably ACCURATE numbers silly.

Haha, sorry, I must've read your post too quickly.

You're right, those numbers do seem fairly accurate. Will Microsoft ever redesign the 360 from the ground up to reduce manufacturing costs and to solve the high failure rate problem?

[j_factor]

yea they are, with no HDD, no wifi, no rechargable batteries and slap an additional $50.00 price tag on there for Live... I dont care if they were $100.00, they DO NOT COMPARE

http://bayimg.com/image/baddgaacf.jpg

[FxMercenary]

Looks like PC World is getting in on the drama...

In all seriousness though, when things like this happen, we as gamers all win by paying less.

Also I didnt know PS3 was BC with PS1 Games, im gonna go try this out right now!

http://www.pcworld.com/article/170411/ps3_slim_vs_xbox_360_price_fight.html/

http://images.pcworld.com/news/graphics/170411-ps3-slim-versus-xbox-360_original.png

[unwinddesign]

This poll is dumb. heybtm is right. It proves nothing. Treating it as any sort of "news" is simply absurd. The 360 breaks. We get it. GameInformer's poll doesn't give us any firm numbers. It's probably close to 80% if you bring it out over a 4 or 5 year timeline, but that's just speculation on my part. MS has to get on the ball and get a new system out there; I have no idea why they don't fix it. It's gotta be cheaper than accepting millions of repairs.

That PCGamer comparison is even dumber. It uses the highest prices for all the items on the list, PS3 or 360, and just generally has no reason for existing. The PS3 is only a "better deal" if you need all of that stuff from the get go. There are people perfectly happy with the Arcade unit only. Sony should release a stripped down PS3 for cheaper; maybe some people want that more than a million different features?

[The 1 2 P]

Will Microsoft ever redesign the 360 from the ground up to reduce manufacturing costs and to solve the high failure rate problem?

I've been wondering this since I first started to hear mass reports of the rrod. And when Peter Moore said that they were extending the warranty to three years I was pretty sure that Microsoft was finally going to redesign the system. Instead they have only redesigned the main chips and made it less likely to overheat. They pretty much have one last shot at redesigning this thing and that would be for the version that will be bundled with Natal next year.

[s1lence]

Sweet, it must be a New week as there is ANOTHER 360 thread about RR0D.....awesome.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Looks like PC World is getting in on the drama...

In all seriousness though, when things like this happen, we as gamers all win by paying less.

Also I didnt know PS3 was BC with PS1 Games, im gonna go try this out right now!

http://www.pcworld.com/article/170411/ps3_slim_vs_xbox_360_price_fight.html/

http://images.pcworld.com/news/graphics/170411-ps3-slim-versus-xbox-360_original.png

It's always fascinated me that the gaming community at large is always so angry when a PS3 price comparison chart is displayed.

I mean ... yes, it's very nice that Microsoft offers an Arcade unit for $200 with the bare essentials for both the 1st time current gen gamer as well as the 360 owner that's sick and tired of sending their console back to MS for the umpteenth time.

But, the pissing fits of "BUT WE DON'T NEED ALL THAT EXTRA STUFF!" that those charts elicit always make me scratch my head. Well ... yeah, you might not ever want to go online with your 360 ... or play any game that requires a HDD install ... or download more than 1-2 XBLA games ... and maybe you want to run 50 feet of ethernet cord across your house or drill a hole in a wall/floor/ceiling to get online ... but there are people out there that would like to avoid such silliness.

Have NONE of us been in a Game Stop, Best Buy or Target and overheard a parent asking about getting their kids' arcade unit 360 (that they likely bought very recently) onto the internet? I always feel terrible just listening to that conversation much less watching the parent's face when the clerk tells them that they'll need to sign up for XBL at $50 (repeating yearly) for the year (or some other 3 month variant pricing) get a HDD for optimum usage of DLC games (and they never have the cheap 20 gig units in stock) and in almost every instance that I've ever encountered they ask if the 360 is near the internet router (which it never is) and they'll need to buy a $100 wireless device (and let's face it, at this point in the game, even semi-tech-savvy soccer moms and nascar dads who have a laptop know that that's WAY too much to be paying for a Wi Fi dongle) ...

... I really don't understand how people who have heard that conversation being had live and in person can not feel dirty about the cost of extras on the 360 and the massive inflation that it costs, even in part to get an Arcade unit 360 online and fully optimized via over-priced hardware.

It's almost like those units are a "trap" designed to help MS recoup a small fraction of the cost of the billions lost in system repairs, and while I know that's just the crazy gaming conspiracy theorist in me ... I still don't understand how even a rational person can look at those comparisons on paper and get ANGRY over them.

I'd rather pay a bit more out of the gate and not ever need anything else to do everything a system has to offer than have to trickle out a few hundred over the course of a year and spend time in between not getting the most out of a system. And now the playing field in terms of base price is level enough for everybody to make that decision plainly.

Power to the peoples!

[duffmanth]

The biggest piece of shit in gaming history!

[FxMercenary]

It's always fascinated me that the gaming community at large is always so angry when a PS3 price comparison chart is displayed.

I mean ... yes, it's very nice that Microsoft offers an Arcade unit for $200 with the bare essentials for both the 1st time current gen gamer as well as the 360 owner that's sick and tired of sending their console back to MS for the umpteenth time.

But, the pissing fits of "BUT WE DON'T NEED ALL THAT EXTRA STUFF!" that those charts elicit always make me scratch my head. Well ... yeah, you might not ever want to go online with your 360 ... or play any game that requires a HDD install ... or download more than 1-2 XBLA games ... and maybe you want to run 50 feet of ethernet cord across your house or drill a hole in a wall/floor/ceiling to get online ... but there are people out there that would like to avoid such silliness.

Have NONE of us been in a Game Stop, Best Buy or Target and overheard a parent asking about getting their kids' arcade unit 360 (that they likely bought very recently) onto the internet? I always feel terrible just listening to that conversation much less watching the parent's face when the clerk tells them that they'll need to sign up for XBL at $50 (repeating yearly) for the year (or some other 3 month variant pricing) get a HDD for optimum usage of DLC games (and they never have the cheap 20 gig units in stock) and in almost every instance that I've ever encountered they ask if the 360 is near the internet router (which it never is) and they'll need to buy a $100 wireless device (and let's face it, at this point in the game, even semi-tech-savvy soccer moms and nascar dads who have a laptop know that that's WAY too much to be paying for a Wi Fi dongle) ...

... I really don't understand how people who have heard that conversation being had live and in person can not feel dirty about the cost of extras on the 360 and the massive inflation that it costs, even in part to get an Arcade unit 360 online and fully optimized via over-priced hardware.

It's almost like those units are a "trap" designed to help MS recoup a small fraction of the cost of the billions lost in system repairs, and while I know that's just the crazy gaming conspiracy theorist in me ... I still don't understand how even a rational person can look at those comparisons on paper and get ANGRY over them.

I'd rather pay a bit more out of the gate and not ever need anything else to do everything a system has to offer than have to trickle out a few hundred over the course of a year and spend time in between not getting the most out of a system. And now the playing field in terms of base price is level enough for everybody to make that decision plainly.

Power to the peoples!

I tip my hat to you good sir!

[exit]

Have NONE of us been in a Game Stop, Best Buy or Target and overheard a parent asking about getting their kids' arcade unit 360 (that they likely bought very recently) onto the internet? I always feel terrible just listening to that conversation much less watching the parent's face when the clerk tells them that they'll need to sign up for XBL at $50 (repeating yearly) for the year (or some other 3 month variant pricing) get a HDD for optimum usage of DLC games (and they never have the cheap 20 gig units in stock) and in almost every instance that I've ever encountered they ask if the 360 is near the internet router (which it never is) and they'll need to buy a $100 wireless device (and let's face it, at this point in the game, even semi-tech-savvy soccer moms and nascar dads who have a laptop know that that's WAY too much to be paying for a Wi Fi dongle) ...


No I haven't overheard them, but I've certainly been on the selling side of that situation. I worked in the electronic department at my job for about 3 years and at one point I went through that same situation almost every day. I always tried to convince the buyers to get the middle ground 360 just because I knew how much they were getting ripped off, yet a lot of them still went for the Arcade even after I told them they were saving more then $100 with the HDD and games included.

The arcade always seemed useless to me, especially when seeing that the memory unit is a whopping $50. So maybe Microsoft released the cheaper Arcade for people who didn't feel like waiting for their 360 to come back for repairs, because I know a few people who've said they scored a 360 from buddy of theirs that way.

[Gentlegamer]

http://bayimg.com/image/baddgaacf.jpgA FEKA goon like you sure has some balls to post that. YOU'RE NOT EVEN HUMAN!

[kaedesdisciple]

This is nothing more than sensationalist journalism performed on a shoddy statistical study. I think the proper quote for this thread is "Lies, damned lies and statistics."

Why exactly is everyone exploding over a magazine not presenting any new credible information? There have been over 17,000,000 360's sold in the US, as well as over 24,000,000 Wii's and over 9,000,000 PS3's sold. The number 5,000 when tied to one specific market (those who read that magazine) is a joke in comparison with those sales numbers. If they're not going to increase their sample size, they should at least come back with a better cross section of respondents.

Am I saying that the 360 is reliable? No, I'm on my second. My argument here is solely against the alleged study that produced the statistics in the article.

That being said, the value of this "survey" to me is zero.

[alexkidd2000]

What I do not understand is why Microsoft did not redesign the 360 and make a slim type varient that addresses the hardware problems. Isn't this costing MS tons and tons of money? Or are there actually advantages to this, like the fact their install base is grossly over inflated because of people having to replace there systems?

I really do not understand this at all..

[TonyTheTiger]

I really don't understand how people who have heard that conversation being had live and in person can not feel dirty about the cost of extras on the 360 and the massive inflation that it costs, even in part to get an Arcade unit 360 online and fully optimized via over-priced hardware.

I agree completely. And it's not just MS. For all the rather pointless arguments about game pricing that go on ("Games cost too much" vs. "They're cheaper than NES games were") the dirty little secret in the industry is that as time went on (and perhaps game prices went down overall) accessories and various add ons have skyrocketed to absurd levels. On more than one occasion I've seen people freak over the price of the 360's proprietary HDD.

A Western Digital 1TB HDD from Best Buy costs about $105. That comes to about $0.11 per gig. The Xbox 360's 120gb drive comes to about $1.25 per gig. That means there's about a 1036% premium for the 360's HDD.

If you think people freak over the basic price of the accessory, imagine what they'd think if they knew that number. And this isn't even taking into account that Best Buy isn't the cheapest place to get a hard drive. And for every person I've seen do a double take at the 360 accessories, I've seen just as many people's jaw drop upon learning how much it costs to get just one "complete" Wii controller. And let's not forget the premium placed on SD cards that just happened to have the Wii name attached and the various cheap plastic controller casings that cost $20 or so. But at least the latter aren't necessary.

Yes, there are cheaper alternatives. There are infinitely cheaper ways of getting a 360 connected to a wireless network (one of which I'm using myself) and there are cheaper SD cards that don't have Nintendo branding. But these are the exception to the rule. In the case of the 360's HDD and the Wii controllers, the proprietary hardware is often the only option. When a publisher releases an accessory and you have to hope that there are non-proprietary options available to be able to stomach the expense then something is wrong.

[alexkidd2000]

No I haven't overheard them, but I've certainly been on the selling side of that situation. I worked in the electronic department at my job for about 3 years and at one point I went through that same situation almost every day. I always tried to convince the buyers to get the middle ground 360 just because I knew how much they were getting ripped off, yet a lot of them still went for the Arcade even after I told them they were saving more then $100 with the HDD and games included.

The arcade always seemed useless to me, especially when seeing that the memory unit is a whopping $50. So maybe Microsoft released the cheaper Arcade for people who didn't feel like waiting for their 360 to come back for repairs, because I know a few people who've said they scored a 360 from buddy of theirs that way.

The arcade is perfectly fine for alot of people. Personally I have 4 Xbox 360s and 3 are arcades. I have one with a 20GB hard drive that I use in my living room as the main console. I have one in my bedroom that has a 512mb memory card that I can use to transfer saves between consoles and dl a couple live arcade games that I am into at the moment. The other 2 are for my kids who each have arcades with 256mb memory cards that handle their game saves. The last thing I want is for them to go online with them so they are perfect.

[JunkTheMagicDragon]

But, the pissing fits of "BUT WE DON'T NEED ALL THAT EXTRA STUFF!" that those charts elicit always make me scratch my head. Well ... yeah, you might not ever want to go online with your 360 ... or play any game that requires a HDD install ... or download more than 1-2 XBLA games ... and maybe you want to run 50 feet of ethernet cord across your house or drill a hole in a wall/floor/ceiling to get online ... but there are people out there that would like to avoid such silliness.

and there are just as many who have no need/desire to go online. why should they pay extra if all they want to do is play 360 games? and afaik, only 4 games require a hd. microsoft built a modular system that can be built up from basic to blinged.

sony lumps everyone together, and everyone pays more. microsoft splits off secondary features as accessories in order to have an inexpensive base system; so the cheapskates pay less and the technophiles pay more. not saying one's better than the other; depends on what your needs are.

just because you want all the extras in a system doesn't mean everyone else does (i mean, look at the wii... i keed, i keed). i can whip up a chart too, showing the base price needed to play madden 10:

360: $200 + game
ps3: $300 + game

so obviously, 360 r win, amirite? (no, for those whose sarcasm detectors are broken)


What I do not understand is why Microsoft did not redesign the 360 and make a slim type varient that addresses the hardware problems. Isn't this costing MS tons and tons of money? the 360 is currently on its 4th hardware revision. although i agree that by this time rrod should have been a non-issue for 360s, the risk has been reduced. but maybe people do need a slim 360 to visually separate the 'old' rrod-prone 360 from a new (hopefully rrod-proof) 360. probably will with valhalla and natal coming.

oh, and as for the topic, my 3yo used 360 still runs like a champ.

[crom]

you know whats funny?

the ppl who think this survey is crap also include this statement in their post

"im on my second 360"

lol...

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

and there are just as many who have no need/desire to go online. why should they pay extra if all they want to do is play 360 games? and afaik, only 4 games require a hd. microsoft built a modular system that can be built up from basic to blinged.

sony lumps everyone together, and everyone pays more. microsoft splits off secondary features as accessories in order to have an inexpensive base system; so the cheapskates pay less and the technophiles pay more. not saying one's better than the other; depends on what your needs are.

just because you want all the extras in a system doesn't mean everyone else does (i mean, look at the wii... i keed, i keed). i can whip up a chart too, showing the base price needed to play madden 10:

360: $200 + game
ps3: $300 + game



In this console generation of full featured online console "services" (even the HANDHELDS both have them) - and this modern era of online connectivity (all major cable and telephone companies can get people online with minimal effort) -

I have a difficult time believing that the number of folks who have full and complete understanding and have formed a stoic opinion/position that they will NEVER through the lifespan of their console ownership want to experience online play/connectivity in any fashion is as high as it may have been just a few years ago.

Nearly every single game has online functionality of some sort and more and more major releases are exclusive to XBLA or PSN and require online functionality to download much less play them.

I don't take issue that Microsoft allows consumers to buy a completely feature-stripped unit. No. That is NOT my problem at all.

My problem is that when a middle-of-the-road user (maybe a soccer mom who wants to try HALO 3 multi-player, maybe a tween who wants to watch Netflix and do an Avatar Netflix watching party, maybe a grandparent who hears good things about UNO Rush) makes a decision to make the upgrade from their "bargain priced" Arcade unit - that they're hit in the pocket-book so aggressively and in most cases unexpectedly by Microsoft.

It's just not fair to assume that every single customer who buys an arcade unit is doing so because they've made a decision to be an offline-only gaming Luddite.

I'm sure that most ONLY see the low cost of entry of the Arcade unit and are often completely BLIND-SIDED by the high cost of upgrading to get the unit fully optimized once they DO decide that they want a bit more.

Arcade $199
HDD $50 - $150
Wi Fi Dongle $100

Approximate cost - $350-$400 not counting XBL membership.

That's just not fair especially when you consider the average cost of the hardware going into things like the Wi Fi Dongle and the HDD.

That's my issue, and my only issue.

[eskobar]

I don't know about you guys, but i think that is pretty stupid that only 3.8% of the 360 owners that had the RRoD will never purchase the console again ....

The most bizarre fact is that 36.4 % that have purchased more than one console .... damn it ! 360 users don't seem to get enough of the system :S

[crom]

who says you cant go online with the 360 arcade unit?

of couse you can...

wifi? cmon man, I bought the wifi adapter and gave it to my bro because I noticed the difference between being wired vs wireless...

Most of my friends who have ps3's choose to have them wired then to use the wireless...


so forget wireless...

you dont need all the much space to play online... so the hard drive isnt that important... the hard drive is important for downloading demos, videos, DLC... thats it...

[kaedesdisciple]

you know whats funny?

the ppl who think this survey is crap also include this statement in their post

"im on my second 360"

lol...

You want to take a shot at me? Go ahead and take a real shot instead of hiding behind a snide little comment.

I made my point, backed it up with evidence and tried to remove bias as much as I could so that I could make a valid point. Then I mentioned my broken 360 as a way of showing that yes, I do realize that the 360 breaks. I just wanted anyone reading my argument to be clear that all I wanted was to see more accurate numbers around system failures.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

As this debate typically goes, there is a segment of 360 users that seem to think that an arcade unit is fashioned for an "acceptable" gaming experience.

Again, I don't have a problem with the SKU existing, it does serve logical purposes, I simply do not believe that it is fashioned for an optimized experience.

I challenge any current 360 owner on the forum to do the following:


If you have a Wi-Fi dongle in use where your 360 is conveniently located - remove it. Go to Radio Shack and buy enough ethernet cord to connect it to your 360.

If you have a HDD attached, remove it. Go to Gamestop and buy a used 256 MB 360 memory card.

If you have a Gold XBLA membership, create a new Silver account, and stop logging in under Gold.


Do you think, with your current gaming habits - that you can go an entire year with your 360 set up with those limitations and not experience even the slightest desire to optimize and/or return at least ONE of those features??

Even if you don't want to do those things, just take a moment to think about them.

Do you think it's fair to offer a low cost of entry with such severe limitations but then make the steps to optimization SO EXPENSIVE that they're effectively paying almost DOUBLE what they would have?

Man, I wouldn't wish those restrictions on my worst enemy, much less a new/first time entry into current-gen gaming.

[crom]

If you have a Wi-Fi dongle in use where your 360 is conveniently located - remove it. Go to Radio Shack and buy enough ethernet cord to connect it to your 360.

If you have a HDD attached, remove it. Go to Gamestop and buy a used 256 MB 360 memory card.

If you have a Gold XBLA membership, create a new Silver account, and stop logging in under Gold.



1. why is it that everyone thinks that a persons router is miles away from their 360s?

2. if you bought the arcade unit why would you buy a 256 memory card when it comes with one?

3. from the arcade unit to the elite unit, you only get the same amount of membership... its not like you get one year membership with the elite...

your list is moot...

[crom]

You want to take a shot at me? Go ahead and take a real shot instead of hiding behind a snide little comment.

I made my point, backed it up with evidence and tried to remove bias as much as I could so that I could make a valid point. Then I mentioned my broken 360 as a way of showing that yes, I do realize that the 360 breaks. I just wanted anyone reading my argument to be clear that all I wanted was to see more accurate numbers around system failures.

how would you get them to present you with more accurate numbers?

[unwinddesign]

At the risk of further beating a dead horse/derailing this thread:

Bottom line is that a lot of people don't need wi-fi, HD cables, Blu-Ray and a 120GB HD. Why? They don't have broadband, an HDTV etc.

On the subject of buying another console when mine broke: I like the games. I like the games more than the PS3's games. I like the online more than the PS3's online. I like the Media Extender capabilities. My 360 could break a dozen times and I'll still own one.I might not buy an Xbox 720, but I'll keep with the 360. The software is good.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I've weighed in and supported my position.

I know this position is impossible to hammer home for some, but the bottom line, and I'll repeat it one last time and sign off on this thread is as follows:

The price of the Arcade 360 is very attractive model price wise. The lowest point of entry unit on the market.

But if that buyer wants to make a single upgrade to the unit, much less fully optimize it - they're all but punished with quantifiably overpriced add-on hardware.

I personally believe that consumers should be given more reasonable pricing on hardware that will allow them to MAKE A DECISION and/or CHANGE THEIR MIND as to whether or not they want a bare-bones unit at some point after they've invested and not be financially assaulted when they do so.

If you don't agree with that sentiment, good for you. You're entitled to your opinion and I support your right to have that opinion. But making blanket statements that consumers who buy an Arcade unit know what they're getting into all of the time - and if they don't they deserve what's coming to them, again, is in my opinion short-sided and unfair.

That's it. I'm done with this discussion. Carry on.

[alexkidd2000]

I got my arcades for $139 so for that price its a steal. The fact that people rebuy 360s where theres break is because it is still worth it to them, the cost is not that high to replace. Each system has its own advantages it is best to just own both. I really think now though that the PS3 120GB slim at $299 is the best value of any current gen system. Its hard to argue that fact and I really think it will lead to some great sales numbers. I am very happy to have both and here is why, imo.

PS3
-Reliable
-Nice exclusives
-Blu Ray
-Slicker interface and nicer to use as media center
-Free online
-Amazing deal when you think of everything you get for $299

360
-Arcades are cheapest console if you are short on money but want to get into this gen
-Online experience is better then PS3 and really not that expensive
-Nice exclusives as well
-If you want you can mod it to play copied games
-Games on both systems are generally better on 360

If everyone had both there would be no arguments!

Now if Wii would drop to 199$ like it should be I would have all 3 systems.

[kaedesdisciple]

how would you get them to present you with more accurate numbers?

By re-reading my earlier post, you would see that I would like larger sample size and, more importantly, a better cross-section than simply readers of that magazine.

As it stands, the sample size is far too small and the diversity of subjects is very poor. This is a formula for an inaccurate statistic. I don't see how anyone could draw any kind of meaningful conclusion out of it.

[crom]

By re-reading my earlier post, you would see that I would like larger sample size and, more importantly, a better cross-section than simply readers of that magazine.

As it stands, the sample size is far too small and the diversity of subjects is very poor. This is a formula for an inaccurate statistic. I don't see how anyone could draw any kind of meaningful conclusion out of it.

so if they doubled the size (10 000 ppl) would that be ok to you?

[kupomogli]

For the amount of people I know in person with a 360 that has had an RRoD or needed repairs has been 90%. I think if they asked everyone who's had a 360 then it'd probably be closer to the 50% or higher. If they only ask 100-10,000 people, then of course the percentage isn't going to be the same from one news source to another.

I'd say that if someone started a DP poll, from what I've heard, the average failures would probably be well over 50%. Just like the others though, you can't really base it on fact as it's only a small number.

[kaedesdisciple]

so if they doubled the size (10 000 ppl) would that be ok to you?

You're obviously listening only for what you want to hear and making retorts based on what you've cherry picked rather than taking on the whole argument. I'm not giving you the satisfaction. Try coming back with a response based on my whole argument.

[Hep038]

Sweet, it must be a New week as there is ANOTHER 360 thread about RR0D.....awesome.


And it only took Rob2600 5 post to jump into a thread about a system he hates.

[TonyTheTiger]

By re-reading my earlier post, you would see that I would like larger sample size and, more importantly, a better cross-section than simply readers of that magazine.

Game Informer is the most successful game related magazine in North America (possibly the world, I don't know). Outside of doing a poll on IGN or something (which might end up having its own legitimacy issues) how much larger (both in size and cross section) can they make it? Even if the numbers are on the high end, what's the standard deviation going to be? Even if it's + or - 15 (which would be stupidly high) that's still a crazy large percentage of defective 360s when compared to the competition.

[crom]

You're obviously listening only for what you want to hear and making retorts based on what you've cherry picked rather than taking on the whole argument. I'm not giving you the satisfaction. Try coming back with a response based on my whole argument.

lol

so how many ppl is it going to take?

or

is it impossible?

....

its one or the other

your basicly saying the survey is crap because they only asked 5000 ppl, how many ppl does it take b4 a survey can hold weight?

....

[unwinddesign]

It's not about the sample size. In fact, a smaller sample size versus an entire population survey is generally more accurate. It's just about getting the correct cross section of participants, which can be tricky.

I think the easiest way to do it would be to query 1000 known Xbox owners whether their systems have RRoD'd or not. MS could use 1000 of the registered serial numbers, send out a survey to the people with simple, unbiased questions (has your Xbox broken y/n) and that would probably be the best way to handle it.

Of course, I suspect MS has a pretty good idea of what the failure rate already is, and they're mum on the subject, so I don't see them doing the survey.

The way GameInformer had it set up, most likely people who didn't even own the 360 could weigh in and vote about whether their 360 broke our not. I don't know. It just doesn't really mean anything they way they conducted the "research."

[MegaDrive20XX]

I'm on my 7th Xbox 360.

5 have died on me. Overheating or RROD. My 6th one I've sold and used the money to buy the 7th one brand new. It's still going...thank god...

[alexkidd2000]

I'm on my 7th Xbox 360.

5 have died on me. Overheating or RROD. My 6th one I've sold and used the money to buy the 7th one brand new. It's still going...thank god...

Its sad when this shocks no one.

[kaedesdisciple]

lol

so how many ppl is it going to take?

or

is it impossible?

....

its one or the other

your basicly saying the survey is crap because they only asked 5000 ppl, how many ppl does it take b4 a survey can hold weight?

....


How many times do you have to read something before you process it?

Don't dumb down my position and make it seem like I'm only attacking the sample size. Try again.

[s1lence]

And it only took Rob2600 5 post to jump into a thread about a system he hates.

Yeah, he was on the ball in this one.

[JohnnyBlaze]

I thought it was closer to 100%. I'm not trying to be funny, I can't think of anyone I know who has only bought one system.

I did, because I was sick of their customer service and the fact that mine broke down AGAIN after they fixed it. They just sent me a refurbished one instead and that went in about a month.

Call me a dick, but I sold it during one of the times it was working to someone I used to know that was a real ass. He paid $200 for it. I didn't tell him that it would cease to function after a while though. After all he did, I consider it payback.

[kupomogli]

I did, because I was sick of their customer service and the fact that mine broke down AGAIN after they fixed it. They just sent me a refurbished one instead and that went in about a month.

Atleast you're one of the smart ones. You have others bitching about the price of the PS3 and these are people who will probably buy another 360 after the three years warranty is up. If you think about it the 360 is guaranteed to cost more, even without talking about the price of XBL or any of the other accessories.

I also sold my 360 but I had both systems. The controller being an overall pos, paying to pay online, and the system reliability eventually made my decision easy.

[JohnnyBlaze]

Atleast you're one of the smart ones. You have others bitching about the price of the PS3 and these are people who will probably buy another 360 after the three years warranty is up.

I will chalk that easy decision up to being a Windows user as well as the fact that most of the 360 games I want to play are also being ported to the PC. IDK, it's also just that FPS's are weird with a regular controller. I feel more comfortable in a WASD/Mouse configuration.

[YoshiM]

1. why is it that everyone thinks that a persons router is miles away from their 360s?
Because lots of people typically have their routers near their computer. People I know that have broadband don't have it anywhere near their TV. Not everyone wants to cut and crimp several feet of cable to get their consoles online. I have a good feeling that gamers that have their router or a hub near their game systems on their primary TV is in the minority.


2. if you bought the arcade unit why would you buy a 256 memory card when it comes with one?
He was stating that if you wanted to take the "bare bones" challenge, yank the hard drive. If I'm not mistaken, those 360's that came with hard drives don't have the built in memory. At least that's true for older models. That's why he said to get a 256 memory card.


3. from the arcade unit to the elite unit, you only get the same amount of membership... its not like you get one year membership with the elite...
Not the point-the point is to use the system without gold membership period. Out of the box you get a month of Gold and then it goes to silver. The concept is to use the system without Gold to get that "no frills" experience.


your list is moot...

No, his list isn't. It appears you're just not comprehending what he's trying to say.

[chicnstu]

The way GameInformer had it set up, most likely people who didn't even own the 360 could weigh in and vote about whether their 360 broke our not. I don't know. It just doesn't really mean anything they way they conducted the "research."

Do we know how GameInformer polled their readers? Which of these (about) did they do:

-Had a section in their magazine saying to send an email if they owned all three consoles and had at least one console break down.
-Had a section in their magazine saying to send an email if they owned all three consoles. Then they sent an auto email back to 5,000 of the respondents asking if any of the three had stopped working.

[dr101z]

Game Informer is the most successful game related magazine in North America (possibly the world, I don't know). Outside of doing a poll on IGN or something (which might end up having its own legitimacy issues) how much larger (both in size and cross section) can they make it? Even if the numbers are on the high end, what's the standard deviation going to be? Even if it's + or - 15 (which would be stupidly high) that's still a crazy large percentage of defective 360s when compared to the competition.


Game Informer is the most successful game related magazine in North America? If that's true then that's a pretty sad statement as to the quality of video game magazines in this country. Just read the last sentence of the "Random Facts" section of the Game Informer article. Making a statement about the validity of reported sales numbers isn't a fact so much as it is a way to get the reader to infer that Microsoft's sales numbers are artificially high due to people purchasing replacements systems. "Reporting" like this is why I only read magazines like Edge and Retrogamer.

[kupomogli]

isn't a fact so much as it is a way to get the reader to infer that Microsoft's sales numbers are artificially high due to people purchasing replacements systems.

The sales numbers being artificially high due to RRoD and other errors is fact. Sure it's not as high as some people would like you to believe due to the three year warranty, but it is alot higher than it should be. No doubt about it being several millions higher than the PS3, but it's not the eight million that we see it as.

[Greg2600]

Microsoft's refusal to redesign the system is absolutely outrageous, in my opinion. Is it really cheaper to continually fix broken consoles? Frankie is on his 6th 360, another person I saw on his 7th. This is absolutely insane. I've been playing video games for 25 years, and have owned a range of consoles. I've never had a new one break, in fact, the most I can remember other people having problems were the PS1's CD reading, which still worked if you had the console upside down! And the original XBOX DVD reading issues, which still worked some of the time.

The failure rate is unbelievable, but the number that really stuck out to me was only 3.8% of respondents said the failures would NOT cause them to buy another Xbox system in the future. That's amazing to me. I guess it's the game library, backwards compatibility, Netflix, and MS Live that keeps the 360 going? Though am I just too old fashioned to think that a couple failures should be the absolute limit on a system? I've wanted to get a 360 for a long time, but I'm just not interested in having the thing fixed that many times.

[jonnyutah]

i'm on my 3rd system and now my disk drive is going bad >.< grrrr. jsut when i'm thinking about trading it in for a ps3. it would suck if i went to trade it in and when they turn it on at the store to test, the drive fails to open LOL. that would suck

[Nirvana]

I had one break down on me, and I have two friends that this happened to also. Not to mention, one of them had it happen twice. This stat does not surprise me at all.

[Rickstilwell1]

I got my arcades for $139 so for that price its a steal. The fact that people rebuy 360s where theres break is because it is still worth it to them, the cost is not that high to replace. Each system has its own advantages it is best to just own both. I really think now though that the PS3 120GB slim at $299 is the best value of any current gen system. Its hard to argue that fact and I really think it will lead to some great sales numbers. I am very happy to have both and here is why, imo.

PS3
-Reliable
-Nice exclusives
-Blu Ray
-Slicker interface and nicer to use as media center
-Free online
-Amazing deal when you think of everything you get for $299

360
-Arcades are cheapest console if you are short on money but want to get into this gen
-Online experience is better then PS3 and really not that expensive
-Nice exclusives as well
-If you want you can mod it to play copied games
-Games on both systems are generally better on 360

If everyone had both there would be no arguments!

Now if Wii would drop to 199$ like it should be I would have all 3 systems.

Now see this is also my opinion. Except when I bought these all, money was not an issue for me. But what is said about their features is true. They're all worth the money. I see consoles complimenting each others shortcomings rather than competing because there will always be something that the other system has that one doesn't.

[jonnyutah]

yea, i can agree. they are both good. one reason i like 360 is becasue there seems to be less fanboys that own it. playstation has always had a mainstrem appeal where xbox had a sort of underdog thing going for it and i love the xbox official magazine. but i'm just tired of it breaking !>.<!

but if you think about it..... ps3 being linux based has in a way positioned it as the underdog in a very nerdy hardcore sense, hehe. funny how things work out, eh?

The cool thing about ps3is that it's a a open system unlike M$. you can install your own hdd of choice, it's core OS is linux(very stable) based and also you can install many versions of linux on the ps3. yellow dog, ubuntu, fedora,gentoo etc. not hacks either. just seems sony went with a very open appoach with the ps3. and with the option of using any off the shelf blue tooth keyboard/mouse, ps3 becomes a cheap cell/linux based desktop computer. :) that is really really cool! unless your a windows guy :P and if you think about it..... as far as i know you can only get a cell processor in a dedicated server or workstation. ps3 marks the first time it's available in desktop form.

aside from all the obvious feature like linux Os support, blu ray, free online multiplayer there is one game that really dose it for me.........................

"Last Guardian" wow!! this game generates new excitement for me. it's ps3's zelda. can't think of one 360 exclusive game that excites me on this level.

[s1lence]

Microsoft's refusal to redesign the system is absolutely outrageous, in my opinion. Is it really cheaper to continually fix broken consoles? Frankie is on his 6th 360, another person I saw on his 7th. This is absolutely insane. I've been playing video games for 25 years, and have owned a range of consoles. I've never had a new one break, in fact, the most I can remember other people having problems were the PS1's CD reading, which still worked if you had the console upside down! And the original XBOX DVD reading issues, which still worked some of the time.

The failure rate is unbelievable, but the number that really stuck out to me was only 3.8% of respondents said the failures would NOT cause them to buy another Xbox system in the future. That's amazing to me. I guess it's the game library, backwards compatibility, Netflix, and MS Live that keeps the 360 going? Though am I just too old fashioned to think that a couple failures should be the absolute limit on a system? I've wanted to get a 360 for a long time, but I'm just not interested in having the thing fixed that many times.

I actually own more 360s then I have had failures. I currently own 5 of them and I have had 3 fail on me since the 360 was released. Two of the failures were related to either RR0D or the E74 error. Both were covered under warranty. The other was pulled off of a shelf by a 2 year old. Of the two they I had in the bracket of the popular failures, one of the machines had well over 3000 hours on it. The other probably had close to 1000 hours on it.

So my true failure rate of having a total of 8 machines and 2 fail for defects puts me at a 25% failure rate. Still in my opinion high but given the hours I put on those machines, ONE of them a launch unit, I kind of expect it.

[kupomogli]

Of the two they I had in the bracket of the popular failures, one of the machines had well over 3000 hours on it. The other probably had close to 1000 hours on it.

1000 hours isn't that long. If you happened to use the system 4 hours a day, it'd die in less than one year. Even three hours a day is less than a year.

I've seen people in Dissidia have more than 1000 hours(no life I'd say. The game has only been out in Japan since last year.) I know a few people on UT3 on the PS3 probably have a couple thousand hours of gametime on that. Whenever I happen to get on, I end up seeing them on.

[s1lence]

Oh I'm not saying that 1000 hours is long, I was just using it to compare between the two.

[camarotuner]

Does anyone actually still care about this issue? Is it some grand revelation that the 360 has defective issues? Last week I sent out 11 dead 360's (work in videogame retail store). That's in one week. A high defective rate number doesn't surprise me. Who cares if it's 25 or 35 or 50 percent? All of those numbers suck. That's like debating which pile of crap looks more appealing.

If people want to own and play on a 360 good for them. If they want to buy multiple systems put them in everyroom of their house and replace them if/when they die, good for them. I had a 360, it died 6 times on me, I quit and bought a PS3. My buddy derek has killed 11 360's and is on his 12th. He still keeps playing it. He doesn't care if it dies, he wants to play 360. So he just sends them off in the coffin and gets it back when it's fixed. He did break down and buy a arcade unit so that when 1 is dead he has the second one to play on.

Why people bother getting upset and arguing over just how bad the defective number is astounds me. It's high, we get it, who cares exactly how high?

For the record, I give up buying domestic videogame systems for the same reason I gave up on buying domestic cars. I think JDM product is better built and is an overall more reliable product. I don't care if it's a car, tv, game system, or whatever. But that's me. Everyone else can buy whatever they want. It's not like it effects me. Some people react like it does. Get over it and just buy what you want and ignore what everyone spends their money on.

[Nature Boy]

Does anyone actually still care about this issue?

If nobody cared, nobody would bother posting because nobody would be reading.

I'm waiting too see if anybody reports failure relates that are specific to Jasper, because that's what I'm interested in at this point.

People not willing to abandon the hardware now doesn't surprise me - if you've spent money on extra controllers and games and peripherals (Rock Band) it will *always* be cheaper to just buy another unit and slap your HD onto that over buying a PS3 and buying everything *again* from scratch.

I really think MS will feel the hardware failure pain *much* more in the next generation, when consumers are deciding which one of the two systems they'll get. I know I'll be thinking long and hard.

[Overbite]

If you have 12 systems die on you maybe you should think about taking care of your stuff.

I know 360s die but I've had mine for almost 2 years and it works like it was new. If it ever dies I'll just send it in for a replacement. It has too many good games to just abandon.

[Kuros]

12 systems? Is he stuffing them inside of a tiny cabinet so they will overheat?

[ProgrammingAce]

I was going to stay out of this thread, but then i read the article... Game Informer really does fail at statistics.

From the information they gathered, they can't possibly infer the failure rate. They asked their readers if they ever had a 360 fail. They said that 54% of people have had a failure.

Now you have people like frankie who have had 6 failures. He would only count as 1 bad system by this metric. I own 4 360s, one of which failed so i've had a total of 5. I would have responded to the poll by saying i've had a failure. That wouldn't take into account the fact that 4 out of the 5 consoles perform perfectly.

Now the other question is to the bias of the poll. Right off the bat, they're only asking game informer readers. That's a very hardcore demographic of the video game console owners. Did game informer even have a way of verifying that the people who responded actually owned the consoles in question? I have no doubt in my mind that Xbox fanboys said they had PS3 and Wii failures in order to skew the results. Probably worked the other way too, how many rabid PS3 fans would respond to a 360 failure poll to push the numbers up?

It's just shoddy journalism from someone who has a very poor grasp of statistics.

[Greg2600]

Programming_Ace, the forum members in this post have more or less confirmed the article's point, 360's fail often. The point I was trying to make, in the midst of my flabberghasted-ness, is that Microsoft should have redesigned the system. Never in the history of video gaming has such a fragile console been produced and sold for so long. This thing is like the Yugo.

[The 1 2 P]

I'm waiting too see if anybody reports failure relates that are specific to Jasper, because that's what I'm interested in at this point.

Same here. I have a Jasper and it works perfectly but I've only had it for less than a year. I'd love to see a poll or just some concrete info on how well the Jasper's have performed since launching last fall.

[ProgrammingAce]

Programming_Ace, the forum members in this post have more or less confirmed the article's point, 360's fail often. The point I was trying to make, in the midst of my flabberghasted-ness, is that Microsoft should have redesigned the system. Never in the history of video gaming has such a fragile console been produced and sold for so long. This thing is like the Yugo.

I'm not disagreeing that 360s suck, i'm saying this poll is suspect and can't be used to show the failure rate.

Out of curiosity, what makes you think that microsoft hasn't redesigned the 360 several times? I think it's generally understood that Microsoft likes making money, do you honestly think they're not doing whatever they can to fix the problem? Expanding the warranty cost microsoft 1 billion dollars...

[kupomogli]

Now you have people like frankie who have had 6 failures. He would only count as 1 bad system by this metric. I own 4 360s, one of which failed so i've had a total of 5. I would have responded to the poll by saying i've had a failure. That wouldn't take into account the fact that 4 out of the 5 consoles perform perfectly.

First off. Why would you buy five 360's? I think it's more of you being a collector over having a system for your family members.

Second is also about you having five systems. Having more than one system means that you're going to get less use out of each system. You have to take into account that other than when you have people over, most of your 360s aren't even being touched.

That's like if I said I have 31 360s and I happen to use each one on each day of the month. At the end of the year, the most you'll have used any of them are 12 days. Obviously all 31 of them are going to be fine.

[ProgrammingAce]

First off. Why would you buy five 360's? I think it's more of you being a collector over having a system for your family members.

Second is also about you having five systems. Having more than one system means that you're going to get less use out of each system. You have to take into account that other than when you have people over, most of your 360s aren't even being touched.

That's like if I said I have 31 360s and I happen to use each one on each day of the month. At the end of the year, the most you'll have used any of them are 12 days. Obviously all 31 of them are going to be fine.

I think you misunderstand, I may have misspoken.

I own 4 360s. One of them died, so i had it repaired. So i've had a total of 5 in my possession.

I use one on a daily basis, my fiancee uses one on a daily basis, my best friend uses one on a daily basis, and one sits on a shelf because i'm afraid to use it.

What i'm trying to say is that there are some serious accounting issues when you take in to consideration how defective systems are tallied.

Example:

I have a launch 360 that dies on me. I send it in for repair, microsoft sends me a replacement console. They take the console i sent them, refurb it with a new motherboard and give that one to someone else. 6 months later it dies and the new owner sends it back for repair. He gets a different refurb and this one goes back out to someone else. This guy gets a red ring but the console still works. He gets pissed off and trades it into gamestop for a PS3. Gamestop sells it to someone else, it RRoD's out of warranty and the dude throws it away.

That one console counts as 4 different failures. Microsoft only sold one console, they only get 1 added to their sales, but they get pinged for 4 failures by 4 different users (and rightfully so).

That's a 400% failure rate. Frankie bought 2 systems, and they failed 5 times. That's a 250% failure rate. One of Frankie's defective consoles may have been sent to that guy that claims to have gone through 12 units. So now they each count a failure, then two additional failures because of the swap. When you start trading defective consoles, you get hit twice.

When you count failures as a percentage, you have to have something as a baseline. The logical thing to compare it to is the individual's purchases. We'll use frankie again, he bought 2 360s and had 5 of them fail. He has a 250% failure rate. That's not a very useful metric.

The most accurate way to track the failures, and the one used internally, is the number of failures compared to the number of consoles produced (and/or shipped). Neither of those numbers are something you can gather from a poll, and neither number is publicly available.

Attempting to extrapolate that percentage from a poll is shoddy journalism and a failure in the basic understanding of statistics.

[kupomogli]

If you buy the system new, then the console shouldn't fail. They also weren't counting refurbished ones, they were talking about the first failure. It's guaranteed that if you had a defect and getting a refurbished copy, you're going to get another one that's soon to have another failure.

I have a friend who went through seven 360's. I think it's been the same system though. Another friend that went through three and rarely ever plays it anymore because of WoW. Another friend who went through a few(not sure exact number but I do know as of right now can't play it as it's being sent back.) A few I know have went through just one or two each, and then I know one guy who hasn't ever had his system have a console failure once and it's a launch system.

So out of all the people I personally know. I only know one person who hasn't had any failures. It's atleast 80-90% for the people I know personally.

So for all the people who play their systems all day and don't get any defects, it just means you're extremely lucky. It's even been mentioned by nearly everyone on DP who owns only one 360 has had to return the system(nearly. Overbite and someone else said they haven't yet had to.)

[chicnstu]

I'll ask again since my other post must have gotten looked over. People are still acting like Game Informer had a section in a previous magazine asking "Send us an email if you've had one of your consoles fail and tell us which one.". Do we know how Game Informer asked? Does anyone here have the issue that asked the readers to respond?

- Did they ask "Have you had a hardware failure for any of the 3 consoles?"
- Or did they say "Send us an email if you own all three consoles", then once GI got the email, they asked "Have you had any hardware failures for any of them?"

Is what I'm asking stupid? Because it seems like the second option would be less skewed.

[BHvrd]

do you honestly think they're not doing whatever they can to fix the problem?

Considering that Microsoft is having their asses handed to them in spades what with the failure of Windows Vista, 360 RRoD, the constant incompatibilities with Internet Explorer cause of competition with Google and Mozilla and on top of it all trying to roll out Windows 7 quick enough.....I honestly don't think they have a choice and have been trying to buy time.

They know if they offer you a "hotfix" (Microsoft's #1 word) you will still buy their software and download their games and movies, so why worry as long as you are paying the bills for them.

I have to agree with the fact that there already should have been a complete redesign. Of course when it comes to Microsoft once all of their "hotfixes" (aka, jerry rigging) have been tapped out they just completely trash any prior product and bury it six feet under for the brand new waiting to be hotfixed product.

[jonnyutah]

will gamestop take my console if the dvd drive is starting to act up? LOL really. i wana trade it in but my dvd drive has a mind of it's own.

[Rickstilwell1]

Is it true that the black Elites are less failure prone than white premiums/arcades? That's the kind I got because I heard it was better with those issues.

[s1lence]

First off. Why would you buy five 360's? I think it's more of you being a collector over having a system for your family members.

Second is also about you having five systems. Having more than one system means that you're going to get less use out of each system. You have to take into account that other than when you have people over, most of your 360s aren't even being touched.

That's like if I said I have 31 360s and I happen to use each one on each day of the month. At the end of the year, the most you'll have used any of them are 12 days. Obviously all 31 of them are going to be fine.

Simple I have a US system for EACH tv plus I have a EURO and Japanese system too, so that would be why I own so many systems.

[swlovinist]

I agree that Microsoft will have a bigger problem next generation with all these hardware issues. People have invested too much to switch this generation. The console has some of the best games, but dang whether or not the Game Informer article is right, people have their systems die waaaaaaay too much. I one of the lucky son of a guns that won my system when they came out, and it still works great.

[ProgrammingAce]

You know, Sony really has to be sitting their shaking their heads... The 360 has the durability of a banana and Sony still gets outsold week after week. It's not like Apple where Microsoft's advertising is overwhelmingly popular or something. It's all about the games, and in the public opinion, the 360 has better games. Even though now the systems are relatively even, Sony still suffers from that initial black eye.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

You know, Sony really has to be sitting their shaking their heads... The 360 has the durability of a banana and Sony still gets outsold week after week. It's not like Apple where Microsoft's advertising is overwhelmingly popular or something. It's all about the games, and in the public opinion, the 360 has better games. Even though now the systems are relatively even, Sony still suffers from that initial black eye.

True, but the prohibitive pricing was always a wall which has now been lowered.

There are enough exclusive titles and media features, along with a hardware re-design and subtle public opinion re-boot to cause a swing in sales.

Price drops almost always correlate to higher sales.

Reports were in that Amazon had completely pre-sold-out of PS3 Slims days after they were listed.

While Sony made massive mis-steps out of the gate and in the first few years, they've done a lot to course-correct. And with their low failure rate, new "profitable" hardware design, and less prohibitive consumer price structure moving forward, they should be able to come out of this console generation without taking "massive enemy damage" :wink 2:

MS on the other hand has to contend with huge bleeds in profit from continued extended warranty repair/replacement ... and with what is likely a price drop on elite units out of necessity not calculated business, one will need to ask, (and I admittedly hate the concept of "console warz") will the winner in this race be the one that comes out having won the hearts/minds of the gaming public or the one that has the most loot in their games division pocket-book to fund R&D on the next gen?

Sure, MS can divert profits from other areas to the games division to keep things floating, whereas Sony likely can't (no secret that they're not in great shape outside of Movies and Games).

I'm not claiming to have the answers to the above questions ... but it's certainly worth thinking about.

[Nature Boy]

Microsoft should have redesigned the system

Isn't using a newer chipset really the same thing? I know only of the Jasper, but isn't that at least the 3rd tweak they've made?

It's not like they're still selling the exact same hardware they brought to market at launch.


The most accurate way to track the failures, and the one used internally, is the number of failures compared to the number of consoles produced

Doesn't that still count the same console more than once? Wouldn't they track the number of serial numbers that have failed against the number of serial numbers available (which equals consoles produced)?

[kupomogli]

Frankie, you also forgot to mention the fact of whether or not consumers will also purchase the next XBOX system when going through failure after failure of the current system on a regular basis.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Frankie, you also forgot to mention the fact of whether or not consumers will also purchase the next XBOX system when going through failure after failure of the current system on a regular basis.

But, if MS wins the hearts and minds of the public, which they clearly have in the US, failure rate/number of consoles returned for repairs/purchased is negligible in terms of coming back for the next gen XBOX.

Now, if they continue to have hardware issues in the next gen, THAT might be a problem for them (or not if they keep extending warranties!).

[Therealqtip]

I thought it was closer to 100%. I'm not trying to be funny, I can't think of anyone I know who has only bought one system.

I'd believe it.

[The 1 2 P]

and with what is likely a price drop on elite units out of necessity not calculated business

Actually that price drop was planned by Microsoft for quite sometime and leaked ads from Walmart, Best Buy and other retail chains have surfaced over this entire month. And keep in mind that the ads for these price drops have to be purchased weeks ahead of when they are actually printed.

So the Elite/Pro 360 price drops a few days after the PS3 price drop was more a coincidence than anything else and benefits Sony more because, had they not dropped their price when they did, they would have been even more expensive than the competition after Microsoft's scheduled price drop.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Actually that price drop was planned by Microsoft for quite sometime and leaked ads from Walmart, Best Buy and other retail chains have surfaced over this entire month. And keep in mind that the ads for these price drops have to be purchased weeks ahead of when they are actually printed.

So the Elite/Pro 360 price drops a few days after the PS3 price drop was more a coincidence than anything else and benefits Sony more because, had they not dropped their price when they did, they would have been even more expensive than the competition after Microsoft's scheduled price drop.

While you might be right (I have no clue who was actually planning a price drop first) by appearances alone, Sony did it first, so unless MS wants to go on record and state that they had it planned all along, it looks like a reactionary move on their part.

[The 1 2 P]

While you might be right

I am. Look at this article (http://www.industrygamers.com/news/report-xbox-360-elite-price-drop-coming-end-of-august/) then ask yourself if the PS3 price drop came before or after this story broke. The answer is simple.


by appearances alone, Sony did it first, so unless MS wants to go on record and state that they had it planned all along, it looks like a reactionary move on their part.

Only to the untrained eye. Thats why I provided you with all the evidence you needed to know the truth;)

[ProgrammingAce]

My understanding of the situation is that Microsoft found out about the PS3 slim (and come on, everybody knew about it) and decided to cut their price. Sony hadn't really decided on the price for the slim yet, but dropped the price because they could.

I'm sure Sony would have much rather left the price alone with the slim and taken the boost with the new product now, then lowered the price after christmas and get another sales boost then.

Each company did what they had to do, i don't think either was a reaction to the other.

[Greg2600]

Microsoft's price cut means you get less with the system, also. Anyhow, whether Game Informer's numbers are correct or not, the failure rate on 360's is very high, higher than any video game console in decades. The PS3 Slim will likely send a spike in console sales Sony's way (lower price), and earn them good will.

IMO, had Microsoft redesigned the 360 to stop the majority of RROD errors, they would have earned much good will. Profits, too, as some people would have bought a new 360 by now, if they heard it was reliable. It's something I think they could have done, and cost a LOT less money than the billion plus on warranties. I agree though that Microsoft's hotfix mentality might play a part in that, but it's really a poor idea. They've been the biggest benefactors of Sony's PS3 high price gaffe, and now that Sony will sell more PS3's, it's only going to hurt the 360.

[The 1 2 P]

You know, Sony really has to be sitting their shaking their heads... The 360 has the durability of a banana and Sony still gets outsold week after week. It's not like Apple where Microsoft's advertising is overwhelmingly popular or something. It's all about the games, and in the public opinion, the 360 has better games. Even though now the systems are relatively even, Sony still suffers from that initial black eye.

Although I was immediately reminded of the PS2 "disc read error", the RROD has lasted from the 360's second year(2006) until present. Thats three years and it's still not 100% fixed. But despite that little gaffe, people keep coming back for more. Thats what I call brand loyalty and it's the kind of brand loyalty that Sony expected they would have out of the gate just because the PS3 had their name on it. Boy were they wrong.

And despite all of that, every system is now poised to compete directly with one another. The 360 arcade is the cheapest current gen system at $199, but the Wii is only $50 more at $250. And then you have the Elite and PS3 slim rounding things out at $299 a piece. This holiday season will be the true test of what all three systems are capable of. Theres no more excuses to be made about why one system sells more than the other. The playing field has finally been leveled and come January we'll know which system the consumers feel is the better overall value.

[The 1 2 P]

Jasper chips FTW, or atleast according to this (http://www.industrygamers.com/news/xbox-360-red-ring-of-death-abating/).

[kupomogli]

That says nothing about all the other problems the 360 has. Just RRoD. Besides, maybe that was a bad couple of months for the 360 failures.