ICED: Illegal Immigrants, thoughts?

[miaandjohnrule]

Furor Raised Over New Illegal Immigrant Video Game
Game Plots 5 Illegal Teenagers Against ICE Agents
Reporting
Marcia Kramer NEW YORK (CBS) ―
The rules are simple: keep a low profile, don't steal, and most importantly, steer clear of immigration officers.

No, it's not the plotline of the latest action thriller, it's the object of a new video game that's stirring up quite a bit of controversy.

"Beware, there are immigration officers out to get you at every turn," players are instructed. The name of the game, "ICED," is a double-entendre acronym, which in this case, stands for "I Can End Deportation." It pits five teenage characters against another "ICE" in the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency.

"The aim of the game is trying to figure out how to keep your freedom, how to navigate a very complicated and unfair set of laws to be able to remain a free person in the United States," says Malika Dutt of Breakthrough, an international human rights organization that's putting out the game.

Creators of the game say it's based on the 1996 immigration laws that increased the list of punishable offenses.

"It shows people who don't know much about immigration how unjust it is to be an immigrant," says Daniel Laverde, one of 100 New York City high school students who helped develop the video game.

Supporters think sending a message through a video game is a great idea, but there are some that think it makes a joke of a very serious issue.

"I think that this game reduces the problems of illegal mass immigration to a joke," says Joanna Marzullo of New Yorkers for Immigration Control and Enforcement. "It inculcates our suggestible youth with a sense of sympathy for illegal aliens -- trespassers who should not be in our country to begin with."

But pro-immigration groups disagree, saying the game could create intelligent and appropriate chatter. "I think this game could really be a useful tool to help people think about what the current immigration system is like," says Norman Eng of the New York Immigration Coalition.

While it is of course only a game, federal immigration agents say they're opposed to anything that makes it more difficult for them to do their job.

ICED is set to be released next month.

Meanwhile, state lawmakers in Albany continued their efforts to stop Gov. Eliot Spitzer's administration from issuing driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. State Republicans introduced a bill that would require a Social Security number before a New York driving permit is issued.

(© MMVIII, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.)


http://wcbstv.com/national/immigration.video.game.2.411070.html

[diskoboy]

Stayin' FAAAAAAAAAAAAAR away from this one....

[skaar]

And if you win, you get a green card!

[Sothy]

Pro tip: Beating your wife is actually illegal in the U.S.! You do not want to draw that kind of attention so if it is absolutely neccessary, Hit her with a bag of frozen waffles. You can always eat the evidence!

[DJ Daishi]

eat your heart out gta4

[FantasiaWHT]

This reminds me, albeit distantly, of the game out last year about trying to make peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Thinly veiled attempt at making a political point, both of them.

[Half Japanese]

Maybe it's just me, but I fucking hate it when people claim to be attempting to "raise awareness." That's such a horseshit, meaningless phrase if there ever was one. It's little more than an excuse for people to feel like they're truly helping when in actuality they're doing jack shit. Case in point: do you think EA is going to pick this up and it's going to storm the sales charts? No. In all likelihood, the publicity for this game just peaked with this article and at best it will probably be released for free online, which the general populace (if they know about it at all) will ignore like most other psuedo-meaningful half-assed attempts at social commentary.

[Pantechnicon]

I'll bet it plays more or less exactly like the NES version of Born In East LA but with better graphics.

[Steve W]

"Aw, it's so unjust to be an illegal alien in the US! We should have the right to drain off your country's economy, piss away it's resources, turn your cities into third-world slums, and generally make a nuisance of ourselves. It's so unfair that you don't let us eat away at your infrastructure until your country withers and dies like the hell-hole we waded across from. Why can't we be treated like US citizens, while refusing to become Americans and retaining our foreign nationalities and identities? Waaaaahhhh!"


Okay, my little rant is a bit racist. But I can't help it, I'm in that kind of mood. On the way home from work, I listened to a report on NPR about a mentally handicapped 30 year old US born citizen in California who was deported to Mexico by mistake (even though he told the INS he was from there and signed a release to ship him back there). NPR interviewed the mother... they had to have a translator speak for her. She's been here over 30 freaking years, and she never bothered learning the language of the country she lives in! For a few hundred years, immigrants have come to the US, learned the language, melded with the country, and have made the country stronger as a result. But in the past couple of decades, Mexicans have been coming over here, wanting the same benefits as Americans, but also wanting to stay Mexican citizens. And that pisses me off.

I know this little diatribe will piss a lot of people off, but trying to explain to me how I'm totally wrong in your personal opinion won't do anything. It's still my opinion, albeit one that I've come to on a particularly bad day. Your arguments won't sway me.

[rbudrick]

Are the power ups burritos and shit?

-Rob

[miaandjohnrule]

Are the power ups burritos and shit?

-Rob


I was thinking that , too. We're going to hell.

[7th lutz]

This no different then a flash game that has people shoot illegal immigrants from crossing the United States boarder.

I was given an e-mail link to the game.

Both games are political related. The only difference is they have different views on illegal immigration.

[FantasiaWHT]

Both games are political related. The only difference is they have different views on illegal immigration.

No, the difference is that in one, the makers are just being stupid and immature and trying to shock people into noticing them, and in the other, the makers are getting hard-ons because they think they've actually accomplished something in improving the lot of these innocent blighters.

I live in a country that treats its immigrants, legal and illegal alike, better than every single other country in the world; I shouldn't have to put up listening to this crap.

[j_factor]

If this were a "real game", and not just trying to make a political point, it might actually be good.

[Xizer]

If this was maybe a 3D game like Counter-Strike or maybe a stealth game like Splinter Cell I'd check it out. It's too bad it's a flash game.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I was thinking that , too. We're going to hell.

... even I was thinking that!

[Kitsune Sniper]

Okay, my little rant is a bit racist. But I can't help it, I'm in that kind of mood. On the way home from work, I listened to a report on NPR about a mentally handicapped 30 year old US born citizen in California who was deported to Mexico by mistake (even though he told the INS he was from there and signed a release to ship him back there). NPR interviewed the mother... they had to have a translator speak for her. She's been here over 30 freaking years, and she never bothered learning the language of the country she lives in! For a few hundred years, immigrants have come to the US, learned the language, melded with the country, and have made the country stronger as a result. But in the past couple of decades, Mexicans have been coming over here, wanting the same benefits as Americans, but also wanting to stay Mexican citizens. And that pisses me off.

I know this little diatribe will piss a lot of people off, but trying to explain to me how I'm totally wrong in your personal opinion won't do anything. It's still my opinion, albeit one that I've come to on a particularly bad day. Your arguments won't sway me.

Apologies for the double post - and no, I don't think your point of view is racist. Coming from me, that's saying something.

*sighs* Okay. A lot of the people who, according to you, can't be bothered to learn the language... well, never really went to school at all. Or there's cases where their daily routines just don't give them time to do anything. Imagine having a thirty year old mentally handicapped son, and having to take care of him, as well as work to raise him. It's very difficult to have time to improve oneself in that scenario.

There's other similar cases where immigrants work their asses off to be able to send money to their family. They work so much they just don't have time to do anything else, and if you worked 10-12 hour workdays, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't spend what little free time you have studying. You'd probably spend it sleeping, or relaxing.

Of course, there ARE lazy bastards who milk the system. I'm not denying that. But not everyone does that, and the impression that comes off from posts such as yours is that everyone thinks immigrants try to scam the system in any way they can.

And in regards to the whole cultural thing. I live in a city filled with Chinese immigrants - they were the ones that basically built the town as construction workers in the 1900s - and you know what they do? They don't become Mexican, they don't meld with the culture, they're still Chinese. They're PROUD of their heritage, and don't deny it. Something similar happens with first-generation Mexican immigrants in the USA. Second and third generation immigrants tend to meld into the country's culture more and more, but most people don't notice that because there's more first generation Mexican immigrants coming in every day.

... I don't know why I ranted, but the point is, I'm not angry at you and I don't find you racist.

[gonzo90017]

Couldn't of said it better myself.

[Berserker]

There are people who die trying to make it over here. They sell off most every worldly possession they have, along with having worked possibly for years just to get together the money to have someone bring them over here illegally, because if they try to do it on their own they're probably going to die.

It seems like a lot of people make the mistake of believing these immigrants somehow represent Mexicans as a whole, but that's not true. We're only seeing the people who want out, the poorest of the poor.

There's a huge cultural gap between rich and poor there, and it's largely a class-based society, in the sense that if you're born dirt poor, good chances are that you're going to die dirt poor. And the cultural elite are as oblivious to these people as we are; they probably know as much about them as any American living in a border state, maybe less.

They risk death to come over here and try to make a better life for themselves, and possibly their families. The few I've known are some of the hardest working people I know. I can't in good conscience call any of them lazy. If it pisses you off that they don't speak English, join or start an outreach program to teach them the language, if it pisses you off enough to actually do something about it.

[Sothy]

If it pisses you off that they don't speak English, join or start an outreach program to teach them the language, if it pisses you off enough to actually do something about it.

Yes because criminals deserve "outreach programs" I also want to start a program where drug dealers and prostitutes can learn sanscrit.

They are "Illegal" immigrants. Yeah my family were immigrants as well a long time ago from Germany. They did the paperwork, waited forever, studied English and finally got here. I am sure they worked their asses off too. "Working hard" does not negate criminal activity. "Working hard" does not negate your obligation to speak the language of the country you choose to inhabit. In what fucking dimension does putting in a long shift allow you the excuse for criminal, moral and social free parking ticket to a consequence free existence? Oh thats right the fucking Hippy dimension.

[Berserker]

I think you may have read a little too much into that. When did I say they should all get free parking?

[Niku-Sama]

what alot of people fail to relaize is unless your of native american decent we're all immigrants in one form or another (we as in people in the states) for a long time in the late19th and early 20th centurys people saw the states as some place to go and start a new life with abundant jobs, the country was bulit on that.

but times have changed and are no longer like that, jobs arent so abundant (especialy as of late) and to become a citizen now requires a bunch of testing which before you roamed through ellis island, they changed your last name from Bermuda-Grass to Weed and you were on your way.

alot of people from other countries still see the U.S. as being a place to start new and have lots of jobs like way back when and we dont really advertise outwards any more to tell them that hey times have changed, ellis island is closed, unlike before where word was put out there thats there were all these things here.

3am rant sorry
bottom line is alot of people form other countries still see the U.S. as it was in the 1900's where there were tons of jobs and a new life.
cant blame em for that, frankly if they can find a job here good for them. i am certianly having a hard time finding one and i am a citizen

[Jimid2]

I live in a country that treats its immigrants, legal and illegal alike, better than every single other country in the world; I shouldn't have to put up listening to this crap.
Oh really? What country do you live in? Perhaps the USA could learn something from your enlightened nation?

[FantasiaWHT]

Sothy - not everything that is illegal is a crime. At the moment, entering the country illegally is not a crime, it is a civil offense - it's not punishable (by itself) with imprisonment, only forfeiture and deportation.

Niku - people realize it allright, and they also realize something you've apparently missed - the vast majority of us have ancestors who came over here legally, learned the language, and passed the citizenship tests.

Jimid - No other country in the world has as near of open borders as we do. Most others are also substantially more difficult to get citizenship unless you are a skilled laborer or teacher. No other country allows "anchor" babies (that I'm aware of, I may be wrong on that one). No other country provides the vast range of services and privileges that we do to illegal immigrants (drivers licenses, free healthcare, free education, the right to work).

[miaandjohnrule]

not everything that is illegal is a crime. At the moment, entering the country illegally is not a crime, it is a civil offense - it's not punishable (by itself) with imprisonment, only forfeiture and deportation.

If it is illegal it makes it a crime.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crime
crime –noun 1. an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited.
2. criminal activity and those engaged in it: to fight crime.
3. the habitual or frequent commission of crimes: a life of crime.
4. any offense, serious wrongdoing, or sin.
5. a foolish, senseless, or shameful act: It's a crime to let that beautiful garden go to ruin.

We're a nation of immigrants. We have become what we are today over generations. Our ancestors didn't necessarily speak English right away and might not have ever even become citizens. We have How is that so diffrent from the immigrants today? Immigration here needs a serious overhaul, no one is going to argue with that. We spend billions each year on immgrant services and border protection and we need to improve it in all facets.

[Berserker]

And just to clarify Sothy I wasn't trying to brush you off of anything, I just really don't want to get into an argument with you, man. That line you quoted was aimed at Steve W but it was probably a dick move to say it in the first place. Everything else I said I still stand by though, as those are my own thoughts and experiences.

If that still makes me a hippie then I guess we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree.

[FantasiaWHT]

If it is illegal it makes it a crime.


Yeah dictionary quotes aren't exactly legally binding in our justice system.

It is generally illegal to drive over a posted speed limit. However, it is not a crime to do so - you cannot be sentenced to prison for doing it. All they can do is penalize you civilly with forfeitures.

Another example would be libel laws. You can't be thrown in prison for libel, but it is illegal, and you can be sued by the libeled party for doing it.

[miaandjohnrule]

Yeah dictionary quotes aren't exactly legally binding in our justice system.

It is generally illegal to drive over a posted speed limit. However, it is not a crime to do so - you cannot be sentenced to prison for doing it. All they can do is penalize you civilly with forfeitures.

Another example would be libel laws. You can't be thrown in prison for libel, but it is illegal, and you can be sued by the libeled party for doing it.

What the hell are you saying? If it is a crime it is breaking the law, therefore illegal. You don't get the death penalty for it but there are punishments enforced if you are caught, even for misdemeanors.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Sothy - not everything that is illegal is a crime. At the moment, entering the country illegally is not a crime, it is a civil offense - it's not punishable (by itself) with imprisonment, only forfeiture and deportation.

Actually, I do believe it is a crime now - something much more than a misdemeanor, anyway.

The first time a person crosses over illegally, they get a warning and get deported.

The second time? They get fined AND a one year prison term. I read this in the local newspaper, so I'm not completely sure the article was 100% accurate. I'm looking for a source to make sure this is correct.

[FantasiaWHT]

Kit - you may be right about a recent change.

Miaandjohnrule - I'll give explaining it one more shot. Not everything that is against the law is a CRIME. A crime is something you can be arrested for and put in prison. A civil offense is still against the law, but is not a CRIME - it doesn't go on your criminal record, it's not even a misdemeanor, which is still a crime.

Another example - sexual discrimination in the workplace. It's against the law. But it's only a civil offense. The government doesn't have a remedy against you, even - it can't sue you, arrest you, put you in jail or put you in prison. The statute makes it illegal but gives the right of a remedy to the wronged party - the alleged victim of sexual discrimination.

It's illegal to breach a contract - you can be sued for it, but that's a civil offense, not a criminal one.

Traffic violations (minus some forms of DUI/DWI and things like vehicular homicide)
are all civil offenses. The cop can't arrest you for parking in the wrong spot (unless, say, you get belligerent and commit the crime of disorderly conduct or assault)

To sum up, and I'm not coming back anymore if you don't get it, all crimes are illegal, but not all illegal activities are crimes

[XYXZYZ]

Looking at my limited experience with illegal immigrants here, I must know- is there a level that teaches the player the proper way to buy handgun bullets at Wal Mart?

[miaandjohnrule]

the crime of disorderly conduct or assault)

To sum up, and I'm not coming back anymore if you don't get it, all crimes are illegal, but not all illegal activities are crimes
I get it. I guess all those CJ courses paid off?

[DJ Daishi]

"Aw, it's so unjust to be an illegal alien in the US! We should have the right to drain off your country's economy, piss away it's resources, turn your cities into third-world slums, and generally make a nuisance of ourselves. It's so unfair that you don't let us eat away at your infrastructure until your country withers and dies like the hell-hole we waded across from. Why can't we be treated like US citizens, while refusing to become Americans and retaining our foreign nationalities and identities? Waaaaahhhh!"


Okay, my little rant is a bit racist. But I can't help it, I'm in that kind of mood. On the way home from work, I listened to a report on NPR about a mentally handicapped 30 year old US born citizen in California who was deported to Mexico by mistake (even though he told the INS he was from there and signed a release to ship him back there). NPR interviewed the mother... they had to have a translator speak for her. She's been here over 30 freaking years, and she never bothered learning the language of the country she lives in! For a few hundred years, immigrants have come to the US, learned the language, melded with the country, and have made the country stronger as a result. But in the past couple of decades, Mexicans have been coming over here, wanting the same benefits as Americans, but also wanting to stay Mexican citizens. And that pisses me off.

I know this little diatribe will piss a lot of people off, but trying to explain to me how I'm totally wrong in your personal opinion won't do anything. It's still my opinion, albeit one that I've come to on a particularly bad day. Your arguments won't sway me.

sounds like your stating a fact.

...I just have to say, it gets a bit irritating when half the shows/commercials in Cali are in spanish

[E Nice]

"It shows people who don't know much about immigration how unjust it is to be an immigrant," says Daniel Laverde, one of 100 New York City high school students who helped develop the video game.

So..what part of the game features this paragraph? The part where stand in line at a consulate, fill out a form and then go back home and patiently wait for approval to come over the US? Last I knew nothing out of ordinary has been unjust for my relatives who recently immigrated here, nor my own immigrant parents for that matter. It took a few years of waiting and now they're here.


"The aim of the game is trying to figure out how to keep your freedom, how to navigate a very complicated and unfair set of laws to be able to remain a free person in the United States," says Malika Dutt of Breakthrough, an international human rights organization that's putting out the game.

What's the Hard difficulty mode of the game like, the immigration laws of Mexico itself?

[noname11]

does it have a level where you pick tomatoes for a penny a pound?


is there a cheat to make you earn money faster?

[Breakthrough]

Hi,

Breakthrough (http://www.breakthrough.tv) created ICED to show that immigration is a human rights issue. The laws are denying due process and human rights to ALL immigrants- legal and undocumented.

Also note- that four of the five characters in ICED are legal.

When we deny due process and human rights to some, we put all of our freedoms at risk.

Thank you,

-Breakthrough
www.icedgame.com (http://www.icedgame.com)

[evil_genius]

So in 1996 they were 4 years old.

[heybtbm]

legal and undocumented.

Undocumented? The last time I checked, the opposite of legal was illegal.

[Berserker]

Undocumented? The last time I checked, the opposite of legal was illegal.

Most definitely, and this is where most of those people lose me. While I personally applaud anyone who risks their life crossing a desert just to be here, simply because that's a pretty gutsy thing to do just to try and make a better life for yourself, I'm not so dense as to try and dispute the absolute illegality of what these people are doing.

[iamchris]

Illegal Immigrants are illegal. They get caught, they go home. Thats fine, thats how it should be.

To be fair, I have never gone to a job interview and looked around and seen anyone in a sombrero and a suit, going after my job.

Everyone should have a right to due process. If we're the America that all the flag humping eagle lovers say we are, then we should be setting that example. But its not that hard to figure out. "Please produce paperwork that you are a legally residing in America".

Of course I also don't feel we treat immigrants as shitty as the liberal guilters would like us to believe.

I suppose i'm indifferent to the idea of illegal immigrants. Should they get free passes to stay here and public assistance? Shit no. But I don't think the issue of public assistance to illegals is as rampant as folks believe.

If someones willing to hire an illegal immigrant over an American or documented worker, then fine. They were probably gonna fuck you anyway. If there weren't jobs for illegal immigrants, they wouldn't come here.

No one seems to be bitching about people stealing from SSI and welfare by faking back injuries and having their kids pretend they're retarded. You want to talk about a problem thats rampant in america? How about Americans being too lazy to work, so we have to support them.

[noname11]

No one seems to be bitching about people stealing from SSI and welfare by faking back injuries and having their kids pretend they're retarded. You want to talk about a problem thats rampant in america? How about Americans being too lazy to work, so we have to support them.


hey, thats how i get my games!

"Back in the '30s you had to grift, either that or work"

[Xizer]

I think we should switch out everyone who thinks of an "illegal immigrant" as some kind of in-equal non-human with the illegal immigrant.

You won the lottery and were born in the United States, good for you! That's a 1 in 20 chance. I guess those other 19 people who were born when you were deserve to suffer in poverty because they lost the lottery.

[mercarian]

Apologies for the double post - and no, I don't think your point of view is racist. Coming from me, that's saying something.

*sighs* Okay. A lot of the people who, according to you, can't be bothered to learn the language... well, never really went to school at all. Or there's cases where their daily routines just don't give them time to do anything. Imagine having a thirty year old mentally handicapped son, and having to take care of him, as well as work to raise him. It's very difficult to have time to improve oneself in that scenario.

There's other similar cases where immigrants work their asses off to be able to send money to their family. They work so much they just don't have time to do anything else, and if you worked 10-12 hour workdays, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't spend what little free time you have studying. You'd probably spend it sleeping, or relaxing.

Of course, there ARE lazy bastards who milk the system. I'm not denying that. But not everyone does that, and the impression that comes off from posts such as yours is that everyone thinks immigrants try to scam the system in any way they can.

And in regards to the whole cultural thing. I live in a city filled with Chinese immigrants - they were the ones that basically built the town as construction workers in the 1900s - and you know what they do? They don't become Mexican, they don't meld with the culture, they're still Chinese. They're PROUD of their heritage, and don't deny it. Something similar happens with first-generation Mexican immigrants in the USA. Second and third generation immigrants tend to meld into the country's culture more and more, but most people don't notice that because there's more first generation Mexican immigrants coming in every day.

... I don't know why I ranted, but the point is, I'm not angry at you and I don't find you racist.

Every "Spanish" country in the world is poor, crime ridden, and basically a waste (also look at countries such as Africa, the middle East, most of Asia, etc) Based on how these people live in there own countries, is how they live in our nation (ie why most areas with these people are typically impoverished, crime ridden, etc). The problem with our country, is that its cheaper to keep them here, then to deport the Mexicans (big business also likes the cheap labor which certainly doesn't help). If we wanted to make a point then we would issue a Bill that would state "illegal immigrants will be shot and killed on the spot" and "illegals that have kids in the country will not be given citizenship." I'm obviously being really overboard on those two above comments, but the States really need too issue "harsh" punishments to those that do not belong here. At this point, the worst that can happen to a person is jail time or being deported. A person mentioned above that you have to speak our language to become a citizen, completely false. When you take the citizenship test, its in your natural language. This is why some people come into our country, and never speak our language. Onto the game now. I honestly find it really offensive. The goal of the game is to live in the US illegally, and if you win you beat the system. It makes our boarder patrols look like a joke, as well as our government. The general public doesn't want Mexicans in our country illegally. Also, its not that difficult to gain citizenship (and the only downfall is that one would have to pay taxes). Mexicans interestingly enough don't spend most of there earnings in our country, they just stay here a couples years and then move back to Mexico. Its amazing to me that banks are giving illegals credit cards, people give them jobs, and states are giving them licenses. Thats just encouraging people to do illegal things and also should be punished. Can people from impoverished nations come into our country and be an important part of our economy? Of course they can, as we're all immigrants in this country. This whole topic really angers me honestly. I'm typing this because these are the feelings this topic brings up. While I know that it will probably get some negative feedback, I just hope we can have a mature, interesting conversation about it. I also hope that people will use hard facts to back up there claims. Thanks O_o

[mercarian]

I think we should switch out everyone who thinks of an "illegal immigrant" as some kind of in-equal non-human with the illegal immigrant.

You won the lottery and were born in the United States, good for you! That's a 1 in 20 chance. I guess those other 19 people who were born when you were deserve to suffer in poverty because they lost the lottery.

And how is that my problem or our countries issue. I suppose you think everyone should be allowed in, get a free education, interest free loans to purchase business, yet give little back to the economy. I'm sorry but the citizens of the country should get first dibbs at those privealages.

[miaandjohnrule]

Every "Spanish" country in the world is poor, crime ridden, and basically a waste (also look at countries such as Africa, the middle East, most of Asia, etc) Based on how these people live in there own countries, is how they live in our nation (ie why most areas with these people are typically impoverished, crime ridden, etc). The problem with our country, is that its cheaper to keep them here, then to deport the Mexicans (big business also likes the cheap labor which certainly doesn't help). If we wanted to make a point then we would issue a Bill that would state "illegal immigrants will be shot and killed on the spot" and "illegals that have kids in the country will not be given citizenship." I'm obviously being really overboard on those two above comments, but the States really need too issue "harsh" punishments to those that do not belong here. At this point, the worst that can happen to a person is jail time or being deported. A person mentioned above that you have to speak our language to become a citizen, completely false. When you take the citizenship test, its in your natural language. This is why some people come into our country, and never speak our language. Onto the game now. I honestly find it really offensive. The goal of the game is to live in the US illegally, and if you win you beat the system. It makes our boarder patrols look like a joke, as well as our government. The general public doesn't want Mexicans in our country illegally. Also, its not that difficult to gain citizenship (and the only downfall is that one would have to pay taxes). Mexicans interestingly enough don't spend most of there earnings in our country, they just stay here a couples years and then move back to Mexico. Its amazing to me that banks are giving illegals credit cards, people give them jobs, and states are giving them licenses. Thats just encouraging people to do illegal things and also should be punished. Can people from impoverished nations come into our country and be an important part of our economy? Of course they can, as we're all immigrants in this country. This whole topic really angers me honestly. I'm typing this because these are the feelings this topic brings up. While I know that it will probably get some negative feedback, I just hope we can have a mature, interesting conversation about it. I also hope that people will use hard facts to back up there claims. Thanks O_o

You are ignorant. Try to stop thinking in generalities and stereotypes. Go to school and learn some diversity and tolerance.

[mercarian]

You are ignorant. Try to stop thinking in generalities and stereotypes. Go to school and learn some diversity and tolerance.

Unlike you, I went to college and will be done soon. If you can prove me wrong, then please do so. Why do generalities and stereotypes exist? Thats because there generally true, however there are exceptions. As I've stated above, use facts to prove your points or I'll only make you look foolish. You also prove to be a hypocrite. Let me explain. You state that I'm ignorant because I think in generalities, stereotypes, and need to be and should have more tolerance. Guess what, your generalizing me as being ignorant based on my thought train, as well as stereotyping me into a group that I don't belong too. You've done a fine job of making yourself look stupid in your above post. O_o

[josemp81]

I'll I have to say is that I have never seen a Homeless Mexican on the street begging for money. Most of them are white or black. Mexican's are on corners trying to make a living selling flowers or fruit.

[mercarian]

I'll I have to say is that I have never seen a Homeless Mexican on the street begging for money. Most of them are white or black. Mexican's are on corners trying to make a living selling flowers or fruit.

Never said there not "hard" workers. But that doesn't mean they deserve a free pass. Since blacks and whites represent the bull share of our population, they would also show a higher percentage of unemployment and such.

[miaandjohnrule]

I was basically just reflecting on your negativism about all Spanish countries. Here you go.


Every "Spanish" country in the world is poor, crime ridden, and basically a waste
I take it that you have been to many? What about Spain?

(also look at countries such as Africa, the middle East, most of Asia, etc) You list contintents. They aren't Spanish, either.


Based on how these people live in there own countries, is how they live in our nation (ie why most areas with these people are typically impoverished, crime ridden, etc).
you must be involved and know many of these areas? They must choose to live in such poverty, right? Oh, it's all they can afford?


The problem with our country, is that its cheaper to keep them here, then to deport the Mexicans (big business also likes the cheap labor which certainly doesn't help).
Of course it is cheaper to do something rather than nothing


I'm obviously being really overboard on those two above comments, but the States really need too issue "harsh" punishments to those that do not belong here. At this point, the worst that can happen to a person is jail time or being deported.
I agree with you on this one. There must be some way to discourage them.


The general public doesn't want Mexicans in our country illegally
Did you take a poll?


I also hope that people will use hard facts to back up there claims
What about your claims? Where are all of your "Hard facts"?

[mercarian]

I was basically just reflecting on your negativism about all Spanish countries. Here you go.


I take it that you have been to many? What about Spain?

Spain is still a fairly poor country in its own. I listed continents because I was talking about an entire grouping of people. For instance, I'm not going to list Iraq, Iran, etc when besides oil they have little ways of income. If you go online you can find the gross GDPs of the countries within the continents I listed, and there all at the bottom (actually I believe Africa/South American make up the bulk of the bottom half of the listing). In retrospect, there are certain corporations in the states that make more then entire countries.



I agree with you on this one. There must be some way to discourage them.

Its a rough decision. Cost would be high, but what could our country really do to discourage people. If someone knows, they deserve a medal.

Did you take a poll?

I'll try to locate one online. But from what I've seen of workers, especially in the surrounding areas of Mexico, the people seem unhappy to have lost there jobs and have higher crime rates in there areas. Remember, its the lower to middle class man losing his job in these situations.

What about your claims? Where are all of your "Hard facts"?

Just ask which ones you want. I would be happy to support my claims.

[miaandjohnrule]

Just ask which ones you want. I would be happy to support my claims.

I don't care to have this conversation. I was commenting on negativism about all Spanish countries and your stereotypical views. I suggest getting a look at things from a more worldly point of view.

[mercarian]

Sorry bout the botch on the above post

Based on how these people live in there own countries, is how they live in our nation (ie why most areas with these people are typically impoverished, crime ridden, etc).

you must be involved and know many of these areas? They must choose to live in such poverty, right? Oh, it's all they can afford?

They don't choose initially to live in poverty, however they do seem to stay in that area. I looked up average incomes/iq's/areas of crime based upon race. They all have direct correlations to one another. As incomes in areas are lower, crime generally increases, violence escalades, and amount of children per family increases (as iq declines per amount of children). Honestly, I think it goes without saying, bad areas are generally made up of blacks, hispanics, and to an extent whites. If you want, I can send the sites to you privately, so we don't take up more of this thread, kind of getting off topic I suppose.

[miaandjohnrule]

If you want, I can send the sites to you privately, so we don't take up more of this thread, kind of getting off topic I suppose.


I'll pass, thanks

[Kitsune Sniper]

Also, its not that difficult to gain citizenship (and the only downfall is that one would have to pay taxes).

Excuse me?

You have no goddamn IDEA how fucking difficult it is to get US citizenship. I was lucky, my mother was born in the US so I didn't have to go through all the bullshit red tape that the INS puts any average working foreigner through. You have to pay a LOT of money just to get a chance to become a citizen - and if you don't get picked, the US government KEEPS the money and you're stuck.

I -have- relatives in the US who crossed over illegally. Lots of 'em. I don't support them being there illegally but I understand WHY they're there and why they couldn't go through the shit the INS tried to make them go through.

Augh.

[mercarian]

Excuse me?

You have no goddamn IDEA how fucking difficult it is to get US citizenship. I was lucky, my mother was born in the US so I didn't have to go through all the bullshit red tape that the INS puts any average working foreigner through. You have to pay a LOT of money just to get a chance to become a citizen - and if you don't get picked, the US government KEEPS the money and you're stuck.

I -have- relatives in the US who crossed over illegally. Lots of 'em. I don't support them being there illegally but I understand WHY they're there and why they couldn't go through the shit the INS tried to make them go through.

Augh.

Lol, your post made me laugh. Essentially, your family consists of boarder jumpers. And I mean that in a negative way. Your idea's are really screwed up. Let me explain. Basically you believe if you can't get entry into this country, then you should do so illegally. Do you think its really fair that some of your family members entered the country, don't pay taxes, take jobs away from other people who are citizens, have there children gain citizenship through birth, and have the same rights as a person who lived here/went through the red tape legally? I have another question for you. Do you think its ok to steal something because you can't afford it? Basically, thats what your family members did. Your post is really an insult, and you should hold your head low. Finally, don't use foul language on the forums. You can get your point across just fine without them, and sound like a mature adult. I'm sure you just slipped.

[Natty Bumppo]

Sothy - not everything that is illegal is a crime. At the moment, entering the country illegally is not a crime, it is a civil offense - it's not punishable (by itself) with imprisonment, only forfeiture and deportation.

According to the Rocky Mountain News (a pro illegal immigrant biased paper based in the sanctuary "Queen City of the Plains", Denver, Colorado )

"Since 1929, illegal entry into the United States has been a federal crime, a misdemeanor.

The penalty for a first offense is up to six months in jail or prison and/or a fine of $50 to $250. But the charge is rarely used, even when people are caught at the border, according to a Congressional Research Service report on May 3. Most are deported or allowed to leave the U.S. voluntarily to avoid overwhelming courts and detention centers, the report said.

Applying the misdemeanor offense in the interior of the U.S. is even rarer, the report said. The most common charge against those caught without authorization in the U.S. is "unlawful presence," a civil offense. The penalty is removal, and an immigrant can be detained in the meantime.

The report said illegal entry is difficult to prosecute in the interior because it must be proved, not just inferred, that the person entered illegally. Overstaying a visa is also a civil offense, which can be grounds for removal or denial of entry back into the U.S.

The most serious charge is illegal re-entry - returning to the U.S. after being deported. The penalty is as much as 20 years in prison for someone who also has a serious criminal conviction."

- Burt Hubbard
source: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0%2C1299%2CDRMN_15_4762657%2C00.html


The actual law is found in Title 8, Section 1325 of the U.S. code.

" Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil
penalty of -
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
this subsection.

Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not
in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be
imposed.
(c) Marriage fraud
Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the
purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be
imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than
$250,000, or both.
(d) Immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud
Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise
for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws
shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance
with title 18, or both."

The policy of generally treating this offense as a civil matter (as in place by the present scoundrel in the White House - at least in those extremely few instances where his agencies can be bothered to actually enforce the law) does not negate the fact whatsoever that it is still very much a crime.


In addition, using a social security number that has not been issued by the federal government to you is also a federal crime. (If you don't think it is (or should be) a crime, just wait until someone uses yours - the hassles you have to go through will soon convince you otherwise. Certainly won't seem a "victimless" crime either no matter what mental gymnastics you want to go through to convince yourself otherwise .)

For those who support unlimited illegal immigration, I would like to know - how many is enough/can we support? We already have at least 12 million "guests" here (and more likely it is closer to 30 milllion) and I suspect that a large majority of the world's impoverished people (and yes - there are too many) would like to be in the u.s. if they could - how many billion do you think this country can support? (Or maybe only certain nationalities/ethnic groups should be allowed to break our laws?)

[mercarian]

Really good information Bumppo. Thanks for the great information, as well as your objective reasoning.

[Xizer]

Lol, your post made me laugh. Essentially, your family consists of boarder jumpers. And I mean that in a negative way. Your idea's are really screwed up. Let me explain. Basically you believe if you can't get entry into this country, then you should do so illegally. Do you think its really fair that some of your family members entered the country, don't pay taxes, take jobs away from other people who are citizens, have there children gain citizenship through birth, and have the same rights as a person who lived here/went through the red tape legally? I have another question for you. Do you think its ok to steal something because you can't afford it? Basically, thats what your family members did. Your post is really an insult, and you should hold your head low. Finally, don't use foul language on the forums. You can get your point across just fine without them, and sound like a mature adult. I'm sure you just slipped.

Wow, calling someone's family border-jumpers. It is ridiculously difficult to get into this country, especially if you're immigrating from Mexico. It can take ten years before you can get full citizenship, even after spending thousands of dollars and jumping through hoops.

You have contributed nothing special to this country. Just because you were born here doesn't make you any more deserving than someone who was born elsewhere. It is that sense of entitlement and complete uncaring about others that gives Americans such a bad name, and it is why this country continues to sink further and further in the world.

This guy is a dickbag, and we should all quit responding to him. Just look at his avatar: It says it all. When someone has a picture of their shitty car as their avatar, that's usually a good sign that they're an asshole.

http://image.bayimg.com/iajggaabe.jpg



For those who support unlimited illegal immigration, I would like to know - how many is enough/can we support? We already have at least 12 million "guests" here (and more likely it is closer to 30 milllion) and I suspect that a large majority of the world's impoverished people (and yes - there are too many) would like to be in the u.s. if they could - how many billion do you think this country can support? (Or maybe only certain nationalities/ethnic groups should be allowed to break our laws?)


I support as much illegal immigration as it takes to get our immigration system overhauled.

[mercarian]

Wow, calling someone's family border-jumpers. It is ridiculously difficult to get into this country, especially if you're immigrating from Mexico. It can take ten years before you can get full citizenship, even after spending thousands of dollars and jumping through hoops.

You have contributed nothing special to this country. Just because you were born here doesn't make you any more deserving than someone who was born elsewhere. It is that sense of entitlement and complete uncaring about others that gives Americans such a bad name, and it is why this country continues to sink further and further in the world.

This guy is a dickbag, and we should all quit responding to him. Just look at his avatar: It says it all. When someone has a picture of their shitty car as their avatar, that's usually a good sign that they're an asshole.

http://image.bayimg.com/iajggaabe.jpg



I support as much illegal immigration as it takes to get our immigration system overhauled.

Lol typically faggot Liberal. First off my car is very nice, I get compliments all the time. What type of vehicle do you drive, some piece Saturn? Second your avatar is of a person that isn't going to win the presidency. The man with no plan as we republicans say. Third, your obviously mentally retarded if you support illegal immigration (and should sterilize yourself, so you can't infect the world). Forth, as I pay taxes (as do my parents), I do contribute too the country (unlike Mexicans). Honestly dude, go to Wal Mart, take your weekly 100 dollar paycheck, and put a gun in your mouth. That would be the best case scenario for our country. Your ideas are so ass backwards that it isn't even funny. Morons like you, ruined our country. Finally, your just some loser 17 year old punk, your opinions never mattered in the first place.

[Natty Bumppo]

I support as much illegal immigration as it takes to get our immigration system overhauled.

Which is either

a) limitless illegal immigration since no matter what laws are in place, they will continue to be rampantly broken (remember that Reagan's ill advised amnesty program (even he later admitted it was the worst thing he did in offic - I agree ) was supposed to solve things by legalising illegals and actually securing the border - first happened, second didn't - which led us to this present invasion.)

b) if not a, then anarchy - since it means there are no laws in place.

Either alternative means we will eventually (and likely astonishly rapidly) become a third world country at best since the problems associated with third world countries will come along with the overwhelming numbers of people entering the country.

[mercarian]

Which is either

a) limitless illegal immigration since no matter what laws are in place, they will continue to be rampantly broken (remember that Reagan's ill advised amnesty program (even he later admitted it was the worst thing he did in offic - I agree ) was supposed to solve things by legalising illegals and actually securing the border - first happened, second didn't - which led us to this present invasion.)

b) if not a, then anarchy - since it means there are no laws in place.

Either alternative means we will eventually (and likely astonishly rapidly) become a third world country at best since the problems associated with third world countries will come along with the overwhelming numbers of people entering the country.

Great point. Even with your response above, the only real punishments occur to those that came back too the country a second time after deportation. With the the amount of illegals, I doubt that there getting caught left and right. Also, putting someone into jail for 20 years, is extremely costly, which would mean a lose lose situation to us. Too bad the area is so large, that we couldn't put a large retaining wall heh

[Xizer]

a) limitless illegal immigration since no matter what laws are in place, they will continue to be rampantly broken (remember that Reagan's ill advised amnesty program (even he later admitted it was the worst thing he did in offic - I agree ) was supposed to solve things by legalising illegals and actually securing the border - first happened, second didn't - which led us to this present invasion.)


As far as I'm concerned, someone should be able to get citizenship in this country in less than year provided that they a) Learn English, b) Do not have a criminal history, and c) Are willing to work. It should not cost them anything, and most importantly, it should be fast - I'm talking within a few months, at the most. We could have social programs to provide immigrants with free English education.

That would probably curb most illegal immigration to the point where it wouldn't even be a major problem. Most of the illegal flow would be turned into citizens who have to pay taxes.


Lol typically faggot Liberal. First off my car is very nice, I get compliments all the time. What type of vehicle do you drive, some piece Saturn? Second your avatar is of a person that isn't going to win the presidency. The man with no plan as we republicans say. Third, your obviously mentally retarded if you support illegal immigration (and should sterilize yourself, so you can't infect the world). Forth, as I pay taxes (as do my parents), I do contribute too the country (unlike Mexicans). Honestly dude, go to Wal Mart, take your weekly 100 dollar paycheck, and put a gun in your mouth. That would be the best case scenario for our country. Your ideas are so ass backwards that it isn't even funny. Morons like you, ruined our country. Finally, your just some loser 17 year old punk, your opinions never mattered in the first place.

Hahahaha, the signs of a struggling desperate poster. Go back to watching Bill O'Reilly and sipping the Fox News kool-aid. The time of the Republicans is over, and you know it. The GOP is dying, and it's all thanks to Bushy. You guys really screwed yourselves over associating with such failure, but given the retarded political viewpoints of most Republicans, it is not a surprise that you weren't smart enough to distance yourselves from such an unpopular president.

McCain has been endorsed by Bush, who has a 19% approval rating. Good luck winning with 19% of the vote in the general. I noticed that you called me a "faggot" liberal. Yep, I can tell by your post that you are a Larry Craig Republican. Preaching about the evils of them gosh darn homey-sexshywullz during the day and trying to pick up men in bathrooms at night.

I'd recommend that you start getting used to the words, "President Obama." You're going to have to deal with this country getting better in the next four years after Obama cleans up Bush's mess.

[Berserker]

Ok, few things.


... faggot Liberal ... put a gun in your mouth, etc

Mercarian, this name-calling/behavior is totally unacceptable here. Clean up the act, NOW, or you're getting the boot.

Xizer, please refrain from feeding the troll. Not a demand, just an ask.

Miaandjohnrule, you've got my respect and my thanks for stopping yourself short as you did there. That shows a lot of tact.

[Xizer]

Yeah, you're right. Sorry about letting him get me riled up, this thread got waaay off topic from discussion of a game to a debate over immigration to a conservative/liberal insult tradeoff. I'm going to go ahead and take my exit and hopefully that will help calm things down.

[mercarian]

Changed

[mercarian]

Ok, few things.



Mercarian, this name-calling/behavior is totally unacceptable here. Clean up the act, NOW, or you're getting the boot.

Xizer, please refrain from feeding the troll. Not a demand, just an ask.

Miaandjohnrule, you've got my respect and my thanks for stopping yourself short as you did there. That shows a lot of tact.

Wow talk about a biased moderator. First off I suggest reading the post, the first insult were throw by other members at me. So if your going to patronize someone, do so to the correct people. Second, don't call me a troll, if your a mod you should be completely objective in your posts. Insulting a member is completely uncalled for and wrong. You know you can do so because you have the "ban" button, to me it makes you come off as pompous and arrogant. Third, I guess its ok for him to continue on his biased banter, yet I can't. I think I've been fairly decent in my posts, and have only given what I've received. This is why I never understand Mods. Absolute power corrupts absolutely "MacBeth."

[blue lander]

I don't see what's so controversial about agreeing that a country has a right to control who enters its borders. If you think that everybody on earth is entitled to be an American if they want to be that's fine, but it isn't really your call to make if your opinion is in the minority.

On the other hand, if I was some Mexican trying to feed my family and provide a future for my kids, I doubt I'd really care if Americans wanted me in their country or not.

On the third hand, if I did sneak into a country that didn't want me there, I wouldn't expect it to provide me social services.

[bangtango]

I'm focusing solely on the language thing and don't intend to get into a bigger debate.........


Spanish speaking immigrants can come to the United States en masse, whether it is legally or illegally, and the opinion seems to be that we ought to adapt to their language before they need to learn English. This country has to adjust to them and not the other way around. There are companies throughout the US who feel pressured to hire Spanish speaking employees just to cater to a scant 2-3 people who might call or visit during a day and never bothered learning any English.

Meanwhile, I could decide to spend the next four or five years living in Japan and I sure as hell won't get by expecting the general population there to fall in line with the fact that I speak English, while I just say to hell with learning any Japanese. Really you could apply that same example to any number of countries.

[mercarian]

I don't see what's so controversial about agreeing that a country has a right to control who enters its borders. If you think that everybody on earth is entitled to be an American if they want to be that's fine, but it isn't really your call to make if your opinion is in the minority.

On the other hand, if I was some Mexican trying to feed my family and provide a future for my kids, I doubt I'd really care if Americans wanted me in their country or not.

On the third hand, if I did sneak into a country that didn't want me there, I wouldn't expect it to provide me social services.

Those are three very good points. You certainly capture three very different perspectives.

[mercarian]

I'm focusing solely on the language thing and don't intend to get into a bigger debate.........


Spanish speaking immigrants can come to the United States en masse, whether it is legally or illegally, and the opinion seems to be that we ought to adapt to their language before they need to learn English. This country has to adjust to them and not the other way around. There are companies throughout the US who feel pressured to hire Spanish speaking employees just to cater to a scant 2-3 people who might call or visit during a day and never bothered learning any English.

Meanwhile, I could decide to spend the next four or five years living in Japan and I sure as hell won't get by expecting the general population there to fall in line with the fact that I speak English, while I just say to hell with learning any Japanese. Really you could apply that same example to any number of countries.

May I ask you a question based on your thoughts? Why should people who live in a country, have a certain set of morals/codes/ethics, have to adapt to "immigrants." I get the point that schools are starting to push second languages at younger ages, being able to speak Spanish is a skill you can put onto a job application, and were becoming more dependent on cheap labor, but you really think I personally should coddle someone else? Just curious on your though train.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Lol, your post made me laugh. Essentially, your family consists of boarder jumpers. And I mean that in a negative way. Your idea's are really screwed up. Let me explain. Basically you believe if you can't get entry into this country, then you should do so illegally. Do you think its really fair that some of your family members entered the country, don't pay taxes, take jobs away from other people who are citizens, have there children gain citizenship through birth, and have the same rights as a person who lived here/went through the red tape legally? I have another question for you. Do you think its ok to steal something because you can't afford it? Basically, thats what your family members did. Your post is really an insult, and you should hold your head low. Finally, don't use foul language on the forums. You can get your point across just fine without them, and sound like a mature adult. I'm sure you just slipped.

Oh Christ. *facepalm*

I never said I supported illegal immigration - I said I understood why people go to the US illegally. You don't know how it's like to live in a country like Mexico - many middle and lower class families don't get enough money from minimum wage to pay for anything. I've lived here for my entire life - almost 28 years, and I know people who have crossed over illegally because they have no other choice. It's either let their children starve, or risk their own lives to make ten times as much money in the US so they can help their families live.

All those jobs that you claim illegal immigrants "stole"? Guess what? No Americans would take them. I have never seen any typical American-born person of American (not South American, or what is often called "Latino") descent work as a crop picker, except for one or two black people every so often. The fields are filled with Mexicans and South Americans because no American (I hesitate to use the word "white") will work picking fields.

Know what I would love to see one day? A full-fledged temporary worker program that would allow thousands of currently illegal immigrants to move to the US to work, legally, for several months at a time. Something that wasn't filled with red tape. Something that would work for both US and foreign workers. Something that would ensure these workers paid taxes like every other citizen. But sadly, the government is too busy trying to seal the borders from illegals and terrorists, pointing fingers at each other, accusing themselves of several things, instead of trying to figure out a way to seal the borders AND improve work conditions for immigrants. And that, frankly, makes me sad.

[Half Japanese]

To Mercarian:

Your implies ownership. Example: Your avatar is a picture of your car.

You're is a contraction, a shortened version of "You are." Example: You're not going to be here very long if you keep it up.

[mercarian]

Oh Christ. *facepalm*

I never said I supported illegal immigration - I said I understood why people go to the US illegally. You don't know how it's like to live in a country like Mexico - many middle and lower class families don't get enough money from minimum wage to pay for anything. I've lived here for my entire life - almost 28 years, and I know people who have crossed over illegally because they have no other choice. It's either let their children starve, or risk their own lives to make ten times as much money in the US so they can help their families live.

All those jobs that you claim illegal immigrants "stole"? Guess what? No Americans would take them. I have never seen any typical American-born person of American (not South American, or what is often called "Latino") descent work as a crop picker, except for one or two black people every so often. The fields are filled with Mexicans and South Americans because no American (I hesitate to use the word "white") will work picking fields.

Know what I would love to see one day? A full-fledged temporary worker program that would allow thousands of currently illegal immigrants to move to the US to work, legally, for several months at a time. Something that wasn't filled with red tape. Something that would work for both US and foreign workers. Something that would ensure these workers paid taxes like every other citizen. But sadly, the government is too busy trying to seal the borders from illegals and terrorists, pointing fingers at each other, accusing themselves of several things, instead of trying to figure out a way to seal the borders AND improve work conditions for immigrants. And that, frankly, makes me sad.

As I've stated above, I have no problem with people trying to better themselves. However, illegals aren't coming into the country and providing anything but cheap labor. You stated above that many people wouldn't take the jobs given above, true in a sense but lets look at it in my perspective. Lets say magically all illegals were gone or became legal. Those more menial jobs might be able to get higher raises, benefits, unionize, and generate tax money for our government if they weren't being taken by illegals now. Your idea above wouldn't be bad (the one which groups could come in time to time), but it too has issues. Where are these people going to live, how much are they going to get paid, will they pay taxes, are they going to spend money to stimulate the American economy, how are you going to bring them back to Mexico, will they leave or will they stay, etc. Maybe there is a lot of "red tape" to get into the country, but wouldn't you state its worth it? You've lived in the states all your life, and know how it is to live in Mexico. Too me, illegals are basically convicts in a sense. If caught they can be deported/arrested. Wouldn't you want to come here, and have a "free" life? I appreciate your opinion, and hope you understand mine.

[mercarian]

To Mercarian:

Your implies ownership. Example: Your avatar is a picture of your car.

You're is a contraction, a shortened version of "You are." Example: You're not going to be here very long if you keep it up.

Correct. I thought about that after typing, just trying to keep up with everyone. I don't believe I asked for your opinion on how long I'll be here. I haven't stated anything wrong, unless insulted first. So please mind your business, ok?

[Natty Bumppo]

As far as I'm concerned, someone should be able to get citizenship in this country in less than year provided that they a) Learn English, b) Do not have a criminal history, and c) Are willing to work. It should not cost them anything, and most importantly, it should be fast - I'm talking within a few months, at the most. We could have social programs to provide immigrants with free English education.



That still doesn't address the issue of the numbers of people that you would allow in this country. At the very least you would be letting hundreds of milllions of people (and most likely billions - literally) into this country - and the infratructure just flat out couldn't support that increase. This is no longer a country with a limitless west (at least it seemed that way back then) - and its resources - especially water - needed to do so many little things like grow food - for a sobering fact, read about the state of the Ogalala aquifer and what that means for this country's future.

For a candy-coated version of a society that I am talking about, watch the 1976 movie "Soylent Green". (Or if you are more erudite, read the even more
dreary dystopian novel "Make Room! Make Room!" (1966) by Harry Harrison (which Soylent Green was based on).

And I hate to burst your bubble, but we already offer an English language program called the public schools to immigrant children, which , in Denver at least (where most of the classes have a majority of children who cannot speak or write English and are not literate in their native tongue) is roundly ignored by the people it is meant to help. It is not uncommon for high school graduates here to have only a rudimentary (if any at all) grasp of English. The expectation is that the rest of society is supposed to kowtow to them and learn their language. Last time I was in a McDonald's (and it was the last time) I couldn't get the help to give me some extra butter since no one at the management level seemed to think that their help should speak English - I was only able to order because of the thoughtfully provided touch screen menu (which was miraculously in English - must have been an oversight on managment's part that they even had that). (Some fast food places now even take certain foreign currencies - maybe we will really hit the jackpot and they will soon stop taking U.S. currency - won't bother me since those establishments now no longer see my U.S. currency in any event. )

We also have various institutions (such as the very good Emily Griffith Opportunity School) that offer English instruction for very very modest fees. The various legal immigrant communities use these a lot (as I know after having worked closely with segments of the Asian immigrant communities for well over a decade) whereas the illegal immigrants can't seem to be bothered to attend. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

[Kitsune Sniper]

As I've stated above, I have no problem with people trying to better themselves. However, illegals aren't coming into the country and providing anything but cheap labor. You stated above that many people wouldn't take the jobs given above, true in a sense but lets look at it in my perspective. Lets say magically all illegals were gone or became legal. Those more menial jobs might be able to get higher raises, benefits, unionize, and generate tax money for our government if they weren't being taken by illegals now. Your idea above wouldn't be bad (the one which groups could come in time to time), but it too has issues. Where are these people going to live, how much are they going to get paid, will they pay taxes, are they going to spend money to stimulate the American economy, how are you going to bring them back to Mexico, will they leave or will they stay, etc. Maybe there is a lot of "red tape" to get into the country, but wouldn't you state its worth it? You've lived in the states all your life, and know how it is to live in Mexico. Too me, illegals are basically convicts in a sense. If caught they can be deported/arrested. Wouldn't you want to come here, and have a "free" life? I appreciate your opinion, and hope you understand mine.

Those more menial jobs (crop picking, in my example) are minimum wage jobs, and they already have unions, and benefits. I don't know if illegals are unionized or not, I never asked my parents if that happened. Yep, I'm the child of two crop pickers, and damn proud of it.

And you misunderstood me, I've lived pretty much my entire life in Mexico, not in the USA.

As to leaving or staying in that dream work program I thought up, I'd do it this way:

When a worker is approved for the program, he gets a temporary work permit and work visa. Let's say the work visa is for... hm. Six months. The visa's validity begins the moment he steps into the US of A. He gets a job contract with a company, and the company notifies the government that the person is working for them.

A month or so before the visa expires, the company the person is working for has to notify the worker that his visa is about to expire so he or she can set up arrangements to return to his home country and file paperwork with the government that would tell them he or she is leaving on a certain date. Or, he could apply for an extended stay, depending on whether or not he got into trouble with the law, how good he is at his job, what the company says, etc. Also, depending on how he does, he might be able to apply for citizenship after a few trips or so.

If a person does not file the paperwork for leaving, or an extended visa, because they don't want to leave (not because of an emergency like being in the hospital - this would depend on the case, of course), once he's found out, he gets deported out of the country and not allowed to legally return for any reason (other than an emergency visit) for a few years. Let's say... two years punishment. Once those two years are up, he can apply for the work visa again, but the government will keep tabs on him in case he tries to pull this stunt again. And if the person crosses over illegally during the time he's supposed to stay out? Permanent expulsion from the US, and no more permits.

That's how I'd do it, but of course, this would vary depending on the case. *shrugs* There's lots of little details I don't know how would be handled, but this is how I'd start to work up a law to do this.

[mercarian]

It sounds like a "good" idea, but why would a person just illegally enter the country and not have to worry about applying for visa's/permits? I know your giving a best case scenario, but if a person enters the country, works and leaves illegally, they gained all benefits of your plan with no negative save for getting caught. This is one of those tricky situations.

[Kitsune Sniper]

It sounds like a "good" idea, but why would a person just illegally enter the country and not have to worry about applying for visa's/permits? I know your giving a best case scenario, but if a person enters the country, works and leaves illegally, they gained all benefits of your plan with no negative save for getting caught. This is one of those tricky situations.

Ah, but I did. Be able to work in the US and possibly apply for legal citizenship while they're working there.

Furthermore, any costs that this plan would entail could be absorbed by adding a small tax deduction to their paychecks.

[mercarian]

Ah, but I did. Be able to work in the US and possibly apply for legal citizenship while they're working there.

Interesting concept. I've actually privately thought of solutions for this issue in my spare time. I've always had a somewhat similar solution to yours, yet never considered the thought of maybe gaining legal citizenship. Very sound plan sir. I wonder if there are any true negatives to the plan. I'll have to think about it.

[Natty Bumppo]

All those jobs that you claim illegal immigrants "stole"? Guess what? No Americans would take them. I have never seen any typical American-born person of American (not South American, or what is often called "Latino") descent work as a crop picker, except for one or two black people every so often. The fields are filled with Mexicans and South Americans because no American (I hesitate to use the word "white") will work picking fields.


Where to begin? ^___^

Here are just three non-agricultural areas that illegals have driven out much of the legal work force - not because "legit" folk of all stripe won't do them, but because they can't afford to do them at the rates (and benefits or lack of them more accurately) that the illegals have pushed the jobs down to:*

1) Construction - most of the semi-skilled and unskilled jobs are now filled by illegals - in the past these were filled by legit folks - often minorities of various stripes - but legit minorities.
2) Restauraunt - the fast food joints speak for themselves -but even in better restauraunts the staff you don't see is very often illegal - the visible staff is usually not illegal. (Our wonderful mayor of Denver had an illegal working in the kitchen of one his haughty taughty restauraunts who murdered a Denver police officer in cold blood and skipped to Mexico. Denver City officials had to kowtow to Mexico to get them to (sorta) honor their treaty obligations and extradite the s.o.b. back to denver to stand trial for his misdeeds.)
3) Landscaping - Another industry largely taken over by illegals.

Sorry - the idea that all of the illegals (or even most) are employed in agricultural pursuits is at best disingenuous - just doesn't wash.

Who do you think did these jobs before the milllions of illegals invaded? I am assuming you are just young and never saw legit folk doing these things? (I used to do construction in my youth - quite frankly I couldn't support myself on the wages/benefits that the industry now pays. Why not? - I gotta pay for my own health coverage (I don't get it free at the emergency room like the illegals do (thanks to that scalawag currently residing on Pennsylvania Avenue), I gotta pay a full tax load because I can't claim 12 deductions on my W-4 since I am using a legit social security number, I gotta pay auto insurance (I don't get free auto insurance where all I gotta do is get out and run if I get in an accident I cause - I however can get sued by an illegal though if I hit him/her), I don't live in a house with 30 other people (never mind the fact that it was built for maybe four people) and I somehow don't get to break virtually all the zoning/housing ordinance regulations designed to provide a safe environment for all citizens (and illegals too if you think about it). (And in a unique Denver twist, if I were to get charged with a major crime (such as dealing heroin), I wouldn't get charged with "agricultural trespass" and cut loose. - I have yet to figure out where the agricultural land is in Denver - (only the criminal illegals can seem to find it oddly enough) - it is very much an urban county - but maybe I am just being picky.))

As an added historical footnote, the main reason that Reagan backed the amnesty bill in 1986 was because of pressure from large California growers to break Cesar Chavez's United Farm Workers of America Union (Note that it was not the United Farm Workers of Mexico Union) by legalizing illegals. Despite the duplicitious propaganda put out by some advocates of illegal immigration, Chavez was very much opposed to illegals - his organizers carried pocketfuls of dimes to call INS (remember that this was before the days of cells phones - and when pay phones were common - and shockingly perhaps - INS actually usually showed up) and the UFW often resorted to direct violence against the illegals (whom they viewed as scabs). The UFW even offered to serve as auxiliaries on the border to help the border patrol (which back then actually was allowed to do its job).
Guess what though - the illegals became legal, they stole most of the UFW's members jobs, drove agricultural wages down and broke the UFW. Don't believe me? - do some research.


*If this isn't happening in your neck of the woods yet, just wait. The closer you are to the border (or in a major city) the more this has happened. May not be happening in Podunk ,Wherever, but it is on its way.

[Natty Bumppo]

Sorry for the double post - it was somehow duplicated - someone please delete if you would be so kind.

[G-Boobie]

I'm a manager at a metal fabrication shop, and the vast bulk of our workforce are either illegal immigrants or very recent legal immigrants, both groups of hispanic origins. I cannot even begin to explain how complicated this makes my life. I'll leave it at that.

The two groups are defined thusly: Recent immigrants want to be citizens of the USA. The illegals do NOT want to be citizens: they want US dollars. That's a pretty important difference, and one that idiots on CNN often forget about when they discuss the immigrant 'problem'. If these people wantedto become Americans and join the population as legal citizens, I'd be far less totalitarian with my opinions. But they don't. They want our money, and they want to keep their identity as a citizen of Mexico, Ecuador, etc. etc. etc... Our country is a means to an end, and that is a HUGE fucking problem.

It's impossible to have a conversation about this subject on a message board without generalizing, so here are my two general cents: The recent immigrants are learning the language. They attempt to adopt what little culture we have here in the USA. They pay their taxes, and don't send all their cash to Mexico. They drive legal vehicles and are properly licensed and insured. In short, they are my kind of people, and I am perfectly OK with their existence. Welcome aboard.

On the other hand, we have the illegals: the non-citizens. They refuse to even try to speak the language. They make a point of refusing to adopt the culture, going so far as to refusing to flush fucking toilet paper. They work in the USA for a few years then return to their country of origin with all the money they've made, which is economically problematic for us here. They take jobs from real, legal citizens. I have seen this firsthand.

This is a problem: don't let idiots on the news tell you otherwise. Immigration laws are there for a reason.

To bring this back into the realm of video games, this is just another example of the media making a proverbial mountain out of a molehill. The game sucks: find it here (http:///www.icedgame.com/) and play it. It's a bad game. No one will learn anything from it other than they should play games that are good. All this article has done is ruffle the feathers of the people reading it, which is exactly what they wanted in the first place. Mission accomplished.

[bangtango]

May I ask you a question based on your thoughts? Why should people who live in a country, have a certain set of morals/codes/ethics, have to adapt to "immigrants." I get the point that schools are starting to push second languages at younger ages, being able to speak Spanish is a skill you can put onto a job application, and were becoming more dependent on cheap labor, but you really think I personally should coddle someone else? Just curious on your though train.

I don't know what you got out of my post but you must have misread it.

My point was it is stupid that people living in the US have to adapt to the Spanish language just because immigrants coming in here don't want to learn to speak English.

When I said, "We have to adapt to them", I was describing the current state of affairs as they are today. That was how I wanted it to come across. It wasn't a call to action saying all of us have got to start adapting.

[FantasiaWHT]

Thanks Bumpoo, for the correction. I was misled by the fact it's in Title 8 and not Title 18 (the criminal provisions of the US COde)

[cyberfluxor]

But pro-immigration groups disagree, saying the game could create intelligent and appropriate chatter. "I think this game could really be a useful tool to help people think about what the current immigration system is like," says Norman Eng of the New York Immigration Coalition.

I've been reading this thread off and on since it's original posting. It brings radical thinking out of the woodworks. Not neccessarily a "leftist view," just demand for massive rehaul of the current system in place. I would find it amusing a pro-immigration group would even begin to use this game as a political platform for discussion. It's games like this at faul that other titles like Zoo Race (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVfV2OzEHwg) are made. /end bad joke

Other users like G-Boobie and Natty Bumppo I agree with quite a lot on.

Kitsune Sniper, you touch on some very good points, however to claim illegals takes jobs most US citizens won't is quite disrespectful. My brother lost his job as a landscaper twice (different companies) due to a lack of work that "side-laborers" were doing. And with crops behind my house and up the roads it's a "pick your own" situation. Most of the larger fields have an upkeep by machines and not mass labor, so I'll agree it's just a different environment than that of south/southwest states/regions. I've yet to even see an advertisement for working in the fields and throughout public school we had a demographic of farm boys that were to inherit the family farm. I recall them not caring much about advancing their education afterwards because learning to fly planes, work machinery, driving trucks, and many other tasks were what their family wanted them to know and be prepared to deal with. But this topic does go father and beyond what a simple forum board can read as, so I'll just end there before I bore others (who's even read this much).

So my view is that there does need to be change in immigration, some stricter and some more laxed rules. A better worker program would also be a great opportunity for not just South Americans, but other world-wide countries. The larger issue is if politics abroad in these other countries can work out deals that'll satisfy these changes, as the scope of change is more than just "oh, let them come" or "darnit, keep them away," which is what most popular views are.

[Kitsune Sniper]

cyberfluxor, please don't take offense at what I said. My examples were for jobs that really, almost no American would take. I wasn't taking jobs like landscaping into consideration. You made a good point, and I apologize if I seemed disrespectful at your brother's situation.

Your location says that you're in Virginia. Things are very different up there, I imagine. Down here there isn't a, well, "family" mindset to crop picking and whatnot. This is why my view of this is different... down here lots of companies advertise that they need crop pickers and whatnot everywhere using bulletins and even ads in the paper. Fields are owned by medium and large companies, not individuals.

Again, apologies.

[cyberfluxor]

It's all good. He now works at an auto shop, which is more so of where he wants to be. He didn't mind the work and pay, but cars are his hobby so he would have left at some point.

A larger concern that goes on regardless is payment under the table, or unrecorded expenses and/or revenue. This gives employers the ability to cheat taxes and employee benefits in addition to phasing legal citizens out and using cheaper, illegal workers. This is another topic all together but it does entice more illegals to migrate to a region.

[Ed Oscuro]

Politics + braindead game design = perfect fit! Someday people are going to realize that you either make games or you make movies. Or maybe people will stop reporting the appearance of social engineering as gaming as "interesting" - that's probably not going to happen since game sites like gamepolitics started taking gaming seriously.

p.s. America is a nation of immigrants, all of us are, but the real issue is that there might be an upcoming resource crunch and we'll all have to learn to cope.

[noname11]

I was wondering why people seem to focus on the lower paying jobs immigrants take.


personally, the only time my friends ever come across competition for jobs from any immigrants is when they apply to engineering/tech jobs. some people work for visas and like 2/3 the pay, and that is scary ...


that and the fact that xray interpretation is sometimes outsourced to other countries ... us doctors just ratify what they observe.

honestly, why worry about food service/lanscaping? I think there are bigger issues [globalization, the state of the US economy] in which immigration, although it catches most of the headlines, is only a part of the issue.

[G-Boobie]

p.s. America is a nation of immigrants, all of us are, but the real issue is that there might be an upcoming resource crunch and we'll all have to learn to cope.


We're all a nation of immigrants, huh? PC cop out. You have to stop being an immigrant and start being a citizen at some point. Otherwise no one in England would cop to being English: they'd all claim to be Normans. The US is the only country where you get an ancestral roll call when you ask a 'citizen' what nationality they are; for some reason only Militia types proudly say "American", and they're fucking crazy.

Here's the less than radio friendly version of our current 'culture war'. We moved here and killed the people who lived here before us. If we didn't kill them, we killed their culture. We did this because it's human nature. Now, our culture is under attack. Some call it karma or just desserts. I call it pretty much inevitable: our culture is so transparent, over stimulated and shallow that we've taken to glorifying the worst parts of our own ghetto subculture for fun. That, my friends, is fucked up by anyone's standards.

Has anyone else even played this game? It's so removed from the reality of the situation that it mocks itself, as you play it, because the people who made it have no idea about the reality they're representing with their game. No one who's crossed the border in a van with a false door or at night over the river would even touch that shit: they don't have any idealistic illusions about their lives. THEY know they're criminals, and they don't care. They make three or four times what they would in their own country in conditions that are far better, all the while living like kings. Honestly, if our positions were reversed, I'd be doing the same thing.

But that doesn't make it right. It just makes me an asshole.

/rant. Sorry bout that. Let the recrimination begin!!